The Goodwear Kool-Aid

[MudInYerEye]

great - if you have pics of 60 year olds that look the part, I would like to see. Have yet to have seen one and I used to be an avid collector of originals 20 years ago. Even then, they looked old. Leather just ages no matter what. I even owned an un-issued A-2 - looked cool but old. Mint 60 year old leather. Just not the same.

Here I must reluctantly agree with Nick O'Demski. I have seen several killer A-2s (and many other even older leathers) with very little wear stored in optimum conditions that resulted mindboggingly new-looking garments. I have an original unworn horsehide Dubow A-2 which is as unblemished and supple as if John Chapman made it last month. Also a 1920's "Barnstormer" jacket made by Monarch of Milwaukee that looks and feels like it was made last year. Happens.

 

[Senicko_Spain]

Look at this Transport Coat...AKA Big Daddy Pimp Coat...

This AN-J-3a was the nicest I have ever seen...

I had 3 early G-1s (7823) models that I bought in the box sealed in the original plastic from 1950, they looked like they were made yesterday. I have never seen an unused mint A-2, but I'd love to lay my hands on one, and they do exist. The HH on the Dubow I just posted in another thread has about 3oz hide, it would put any repro to shame. Old Stew from LW would cream his jeans, it's a man's jacket, not worthy for wear by fairys lol .

 

[Windsock]

That may be so, but in their day originals would have also broken in/ aged quickly. This one for example- take a look at the shoulder

With regard to why John's product is so highly regarded and lacking in criticism, they make you feel happy about your purchase because there are so many good things about them and the ordering process.

You really need to have owned one to understand- this is my second- the first one is a pre-production United Sheeplined and this one a full price with the addition of a Crown Zip. I've had this in the works for about 9 months but I waited until March to lock in the order to miss the northern hemi rush and have this ready for our winter.

Whilst I love the first this one is soooo much better. I love originals but now I don't need to worry about hurting my expensive size 48 vintage A-2- this one fits like a glove and I know it's correct it's detail and it feels like an original when I wear it.

It's now a month old, has been worn almost daily and the HH is developing the most interesting wear and grain patterns- alot like my originals. These shots were taken in the shade so they appear quite dark- it's actually a lot lighter coloured in normal sunlight.

John understands the nuances of not only the shapes of pockets, collars etc-the typical differentiating factors, but he also understands the differences in the panel shapes that make up the arms and the backs of these different contracts. Take a look at the back of this Dubow- it's flat across the back and has no pucker around the hem line like any you will see in Maquires. It also doesn't gape at the front when unzipped. I wonder which of the other manufacturers uderstand the differences to this level- I know my RMNZ Dubow which I still enjoy despite is built nothing like this.

There are a couple of small things i wasn't sure about initiall- but I know that this is what all jacket collectors do- as soon as they get the thing they want so much they start thinking of selling it. It's lost a little of the top coat paint in exposed surfaces or seams but this is very minor and consistent with the wear points and seems to have stopped, the knits felt a little too relaxed but in reality they are perfect and don't cut off the blood supply- again like originals. These a re such minor points and are actually bonuses on reflection and I can't think of anything else.

I'm pretty sure I can finally say that I have a keeper- well maybe until my next one.

 

[Senicko_Spain]

Great post Andrew, thank you. The collage of 4 pics together looks great. This looks like an original no BS. Now this is what I call constructive criticism. As I said before, I can't wait the time for one nor am I willing to drop a grand for anything except an original. IMO, an repro is not an investment, and the way I go through jackets, I need to maintain capital. Now, with that said if a 38 popped up on eBay, I would be the first to say I would own it.

 

[Windsock]

Thanks Steve, though I don't consider the cost of John's new jackets excessive as I've been conditioned by the reality of the cost of wearable size 46/48's. In comparison it's a steal! I am lucky in that i'm just slightly bigger than JC so my lower price test jacket fit me perfectly.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

One thing I think that is most desirable about the Goodwear is that they will actually make a jacket to one's specific measurements if they are provided? Yes? This has always been a major concern for me as to the all important fit of the either original or repro jacket. If I am going to spend about 1000 dollars on a jacket, it had best fit perfectly!
I know that the Uncle Sam procured and issued stuff was all made in the most generic of sizes, to fit the everyman of the day as it was the most cost effective and efficient way for the government to handle such a problem. No such thing as "tall" or "long" sizes, or "short" either. I think the average height for males in this country was maybe somewhere between 5'6" and 5'8"?
And looking at group pictures of flight crews in their A2 jackets, one can see a diversity in height. Guys that were maybe 6 feet or over got a jacket that maybe fit in the shoulders, sleeves, and chest, but the length is obviously way too short. Also shorter men such as ball turret gunners ended up with a jacket that was too long. About 2 thirds of the jackets I have seen in these old photos are simply not a good fit for the individuals that are wearing them. I want a jacket that fits me, and a maker that will provide same.

 

[Senicko_Spain]

One thing I think that is most desirable about the Goodwear is that they will actually make a jacket to one's specific measurements if they are provided?

This might be the key, this and JC's ability to give a personal touch. I wonder if he gets larger as did ELC, he'll have to hire and then everything will be different. Have you ever seen one of Gary's first jackets? I have and they look nothing like they do today. Food for thought.

 

[Burnsie]

This might be the key, this and JC's ability to give a personal touch. I wonder if he gets larger as did ELC, he'll have to hire and then everything will be different. Have you ever seen one of Gary's first jackets? I have and they look nothing like they do today. Food for thought.

Maybe...In the meantime cherish your Goodwears! I don't have one myself but I feel strongly that the most important thing is to get a product you're happy with, wear it, and above all enjoy it! I've got a couple Aero's and a Buzz that I'm very pleased with, and many adherants of RM or ELC love their jackets too - bottom line if you've got a jacket you love wear it in good health!

 

[SamReu]

Spokes Man

It's hot in Georgia, so hot that it's fallacy to think of tossing on one of the few A-2s I own. But two days ago, rumbling about in a spare bedroom, I saw the jackets, lined up like they were waiting for the siren to blow.

I slid into the Eastman, made of goat. Nice. Then I reached for a well-worn Cooper, picked up for pocket change at a thrift store. It still fit. I found a ratty old G-1 and slipped it on. Oh, too hot! And, behind that, was Good Wear A-2 purchase order No. 26, bought in October 2007.

It was ... well, just better.

 

[feltfan]

Old Stew from LW would cream his jeans, it's a man's jacket, not worthy for wear by fairys lol .

There has been something... off... about this thread and I
think I can finally put my finger on it. There is a certain mean-spiritedness
about Senicko_Spain's inquiry that goes beyond merely posing a
valid question.

I have been going back and forth with John Chapman for the last
couple of months. He measured me in person and then sent me
a jacket that did not fit. It's a new style for him and my size is
much larger than the original on which he based the jacket. He
apologized and admitted he has to work on that design. Now we
are going back and forth on an A-1, for a variety of reasons.
Meanwhile he is sending me a jacket to try on for size, just to be sure.

To me, even if the jackets were crap, John is a genuinely sweet
and intensely dedicated craftsman. There's nothing wrong with
comparing products and we all do it before making a big purchase.
But the potty mouth quoted above and the tone here, starting with
the thread title, goes beyond product evaluation. The insistence on
incorrect assertions, such as a year's wait for a GW (current wait is
4 months) seems odd.

He does make a good product. Go find someone else who will make
*any* jacket using carefully selected Horween leather custom to
every detail for less money. But when the guy is as nice and as
dedicated to the history and construction of leather jackets as
John is, I can't imagine how anyone could be mean to him.

There have already been threads here comparing A-2s from various
sources as well as originals. The qualitative discussions have already
occurred. If it's not for you, hey, cool, no problem. What's the agenda here?

 

[fishmeok]

This might be the key, this and JC's ability to give a personal touch. I wonder if he gets larger as did ELC, he'll have to hire and then everything will be different. Have you ever seen one of Gary's first jackets? I have and they look nothing like they do today. Food for thought.

I don't think so- finding people who can actually sew a good jacket AND get all the little OCD details right is going to be very difficult, because you have to be as into it as we are to get them right. I think John is doing this more for the love of the craft than running a business. Not to say it couldn't be done (obviously Gary Eastman has made a very good job of it), but I think he is very happy with his niche.

I'm about 140 jackets behind John right now, with a grand total of one under my belt, but this is strictly a hobby for me. It takes a hell of a lot of gumption and insane amounts of time to start from scratch and make a one-man business actually work. I know I don't have that- I'm more of what you would call a dilettante, or lazy bugger, if you will.

But the real payoff in this is the process itself, creating something from scratch and really putting your heart and soul into the leather and making what could be labeled art if it wasn't an item of clothing. It's incredible to me that I can take a piece of leather or a hide, cut out the pattern, and turn that material into a pocket, or jacket, or anything else I want. It's a ridiculous amount of work to do everything yourself, from making the pattern to cutting the leather, to sewing, and has a very steep and exspensive learning curve. But the actual process, not the finished product, is the best part of the whole deal. After the jacket is done, all you want to do is make another...

As i mentioned, it does get exspensive though. This is one of those hobbies where you HAVE to sell something just so you can keep going. If I hadn't mucked up the sizing on that first jacket so badly I'd be trying to sell it to pay for more hides. It's addictive, just like anything that is worth doing.

Cheers
Mark

 

[BellyTank]

There has been something... off... about this thread and I
think I can finally put my finger on it...

Some folks find it difficult to read between the lines when the paper is black.


B
T

 

[PADDY]

Keep on topic please gents.

The thread regarding the merits of this new flight jacket company being 'the company' of the moment and where/why it may effect the larger more established repro flight jacket companies is a reasonable thing to discuss. For example, one member asked whether the larger companies started off this way when they were small and full of enthusiasm for 'detail' and through time and growth had possibly lost that initial seed (something that GW seems to have right now in abundance). These are interesting things to come out of this!

For any new members who just aren't sure yet, be in 'no doubt' gentlemen any public personal issues or slander against any other member in this public room can be left outside at the door. For those who do not already know, this is not your average 'free for all' forum. And that's why we like it

There has been some very well thought through and well communicated discussion on this 'thread premise' conducted in the civil and gentlemanly manner that we expect and demand from our members on TFL.

So to keep this thread 'on topic' and 'live' some prudent sub editing of 'off topic' 'rail roading' statements have had to be made.

Thankyou for your time and co-operation with this gentlemen.

BARTENDER.

 

[Sly]

Anyway, enough on the thread subject, the reason why so many persons of good taste are choosing Good Wear is very, very simple - their products are superior in every way. If you desire attention to detail there is no serious alternative.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

For the record: I do not, and never will, own a GW - I hate the A2 and period leatherwear isn't a problem in my size.



bk

Blasphemy! But you are forgiven. But why, if I may ask, do you disdain our leather icon?

 

[Sly]

Paddy, why are you editing my posts? Please delete in full if you're inclined to be a pedant. I do not want my posts misrepresented. Thank you.

 

[CBI]

Oops. I should have been specific in regards older jackets in refering to A-2's. Thanks for posting the pics although for me its hard to tell by the photos. Leather just breaks down over the years, even the mint stuff. No question there are cool, jackets out there. I just prefer repros for the reason stated above. Also, I am a long time collector who used to buy originals 20 years ago for $100-200. The only original I have seen on eBay for example that was in a condiction that I would feel pretty good about sold for $2,800. Not paying those sorts of prices. Yes, many fine originals go for less but they are not for me. I love looking at them but pass when it comes to a purchase. I can usually fine a good repro for a good deal pretty regularly.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

How long could anything made of leather really be expected to last? 100 years? 150 maybe? I have seen civil war items made of leather that looked to be still in fairly good shape. But nothing much older. And this was back in the 70s.

 

[PADDY]

...

Paddy, why are you editing my posts? Please delete in full if you're inclined to be a pedant. I do not want my posts misrepresented. Thank you.

Read the management note above please. This will not be a battleground for personal attacks or making mischief. We prefer that members have the maturity and good grace to remain civil and stay on topic here. It's that simple.

End of matter. Thankyou.

 

[Rufus]

My apologies to Paddy, FL and Senicko for any unhelpful comments I have made.

I did not mean them as a personal attack, but felt that the conversation may slp in the direction of previous VLJ debates.

I'm sorry I articulated that badly the first time.

Also.. sorry I've been quiet, I wasn't avoiding the thread, I've had to replace my computer, so have been offline!

rufus