The Germans did invade England - Shoreham airport Luftwaffe landing

[Smithy]

I'd never ever heard of Shingle Street. Did the Germans send a small group to invade? We should know about it by now though surely?

I did google it to check on the story.

Casper

What is interesting about whatever happened at Shingle Street is that the British Government slapped a 75 year non-disclosure release to the public about it - it's protected by the Official Secrets Act.

As Warden says, there are many theories about it: German raiding party; exercise gone wrong; testing of coastal defences; etc.

What has peaked speculation about it is that around a day or two later, neutral journalists in France and Gemrnay were reporting troop trains carrying large amounts of injured German troops from the west coast of France - obviously at a time when fighting was not happening on that front.

Who knows what happened at Shingle Street? Personally I wouldn't be surprised if we found out in the future that it was a German raid testing the defences on the eastern English coast as a preliminary for Sealion.

Guess we'll know when the documents pertaining to this are eventually released...

 

[Edward]

Does make you wonder whether Hitler really abandoned plans for Operation Sealion after quitting the Battle of Britain jut a week before victory, or whether it was actually something else entirely....

 

[Spitfire]

But why all the secrecy? Let's jus say: If it was a german raid - and they were thrown back into the sea, wouldn't it be good, morale boosting news?
Why keep it under lid? And for so long?

 

[casper]

Shingle Street, myth or reality. But why classify it for 75 years?

One thing that does come to mind is the Enigma machines, these were classified into the 1970s as some countries still used a form of Enigma encryption. Maybe a weapon was used which the British just wanted to keep quiet? I'd never heard of it up until it was mentioned on this site.

A few more Shoreham air show photos (from 2010).......

Casper

 

[Edward]

But why all the secrecy? Let's jus say: If it was a german raid - and they were thrown back into the sea, wouldn't it be good, morale boosting news?
Why keep it under lid? And for so long?

Who knows.... it is possible that they feared it would give away some sort of strategic weak point or something.... maybe in knowing how and where they had failed, the Wehrmacht could learn something....if all they got back were bodies..... [huh]

 

[Edward]

Also possible that the Powers That Be considered it to be more useful for home front propaganda purposes to have the civilian population carry on believing that Jerry hadn't even managed to land in England. I should imagine the closer the enemy seemed to get, the worse the effect on morale. The last thing Churchill and those running England's end of the war would have wanted would have been a civilian population losing faith in the war effort.

 

[Smithy]

But why all the secrecy? Let's jus say: If it was a german raid - and they were thrown back into the sea, wouldn't it be good, morale boosting news?
Why keep it under lid? And for so long?

I'm not a great one for conspiracy theories but IF the Germans had of conducted a raid on mainland England I can understand the sensitivity about about keeping it hush-hush. A large part of Churchill's rallying of the public was that "this little island" was the last stand. If the public had known that German forces had launched, even a intelligence gathering small raid as a prelude to invasion, then the pulbic would have been even twitchier than they already were about German forces landing on English soil.

Small raids to test defences are not unusual prior to an invasion, we did the same on the French coast whilst considering the possibility of invading occupied France - Dieppe and St Nazaire - so the idea of the Germans doing the same is not entirely out of the realms of possibility. British morale was very, very twitchy at this stage of the war and it's not unbelieveable that British authorities would have wanted to keep quiet any attempt by German forces to test the defences of that "island nation".

German military power was perceived throughout the world as virtually unstoppable. Even if such a raid had been stopped, the mere fact that German forces had attempted to land on mainland British soil would have, IMHO, made British morale (already under the threat of invasion) even more worried.

 

[casper]

Also possible that the Powers That Be considered it to be more useful for home front propaganda purposes to have the civilian population carry on believing that Jerry hadn't even managed to land in England. I should imagine the closer the enemy seemed to get, the worse the effect on morale. The last thing Churchill and those running England's end of the war would have wanted would have been a civilian population losing faith in the war effort.

I can understand that, but if scores of German troops WERE killed that would've been something to publicise surely? I'd like to know the truth of this one.

Have you heard of Slapton Sands in Devon? A German E boat killed many US troops training for D day; it was completely hushed up for many years so as to not demoralise troops and civilians.

Casper

 

[Spitfire]

I can understand why Slapton Sands were hushed up. And a very good reason it was too!
If I had been "the spin doctor" to Winston Churchill back then, I would have suggested that we went out - full blast - with the story:"Well they tried - and we beat them!"
"Better luck next time, Adolf!"
"We fought them on the beaches - and we won!"

 

[Smithy]

Well whatever happened at Shingle Street it was sensitive enough for the British government to invoke the Official Secrets Act, something which is usually not utilised unless it is of utmost importance.

Whether this was a German raid, or a defence exercise that backfired, etc, etc, something did happen on that coast at a time which was perilous in British history.

I guess we shall find out eventually once the documents pertaining to the events transfer from being covered by the OSA.

At the very least, it makes for a bloody good story

 

[Otter]

Interestingly that Slapton E-Boat (S 130) survived the war and then was used by M15 to infiltrate agents into the Baltic states, it still exists today, awaiting restoration:

http://www.s130.co.uk/

 

[Angus Forbes]

I think that Churchill, in one of his WWII books (probably "Their Finest Hour"), makes the point that enemy soldiers have not encamped in England for about a thousand years.

 

[Warden]

Re Shingle Street, found this in a local newspaper

http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/wartime_sea_of_fire_mystery_solved_1_504076

 

[Smithy]

Re Shingle Street, found this in a local newspaper

http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/wartime_sea_of_fire_mystery_solved_1_504076

Thanks Warden. I'd forgotten we'd had this discussion here about Shingle Street.

Interestingly if the non-disclosure for the OSA was 75 years it should it around now that it's lifted!

 

[Otter]

They did. The file was a whole lot of complaints about dammage done to property by troops training in the area. It was thought unpatriotic at the time and a ban was slapped on it. The files were released into the National Archive a few years back.

When considering Shingle Street, look at some of the tidal flows in that area, if a major sea action had taken place, boddies would have been washing up over a significantly large area, not just a couple of miles. Slapton was a major incident, and they only managed to keep the lid on that till about '46.

 

[Smithy]

They did. The file was a whole lot of complaints about dammage done to property by troops training in the area. It was thought unpatriotic at the time and a ban was slapped on it. The files were released into the National Archive a few years back.

When considering Shingle Street, look at some of the tidal flows in that area, if a major sea action had taken place, boddies would have been washing up over a significantly large area, not just a couple of miles. Slapton was a major incident, and they only managed to keep the lid on that till about '46.

Thanks for that. As I mentioned earlier in the thread I'm always suspicious of conspiracy things and I always treated this with a great deal of caution.

One thing that always puzzled me though were the reports by journos in France a day or so later of casualties being shipped from France - must have been from a German military exercise in France which went wrong.

 

[Ralph_Phillips]

Here is an action shot of a Buchon! Low enough for you? I believe it was flown by the late Mark Hanna, who was killed in one a few years later.

The only time I ever saw an Me 109 fly in person was one of the Spanish built ones at the Confederate Air Force air show in Harlingen, Texas, during the 1970's. Unfortunately for that CAF 109, the pilot flew it about eight feet lower than the one in the photo. I think the pilot survived, not sure whether the plane was ever rebuilt or not.

 

[Stearmen]

The only time I ever saw an Me 109 fly in person was one of the Spanish built ones at the Confederate Air Force air show in Harlingen, Texas, during the 1970's. Unfortunately for that CAF 109, the pilot flew it about eight feet lower than the one in the photo. I think the pilot survived, not sure whether the plane was ever rebuilt or not.

Yes, I remember reading about that, the grass was really wet, so it saved it from a lot of damage. I saw the plane a couple of years earlier. It appears to be flying again in Germany, note the weird Swastika, to get around the law! It also has a three bladed prop now.

 

[Edward]

Interesting re the Swastika. I thought original items were permitted, though is this treated differently because it's on public display for entertainment purposes, rather than educational? From a purely aesthetic pov, I think it's very clever how they've retained an aesthetic true to the original, with something a bit more creative than airbrushing it out. I imagine that, in movement, the difference wouln't even be seen...

 

[Stearmen]

Just found this photo! A flight of Hispano HA-1112 Buchons in Spanish colors. Not a lot of in flight photos of them while serving with the Spanish Air Force. Gives you a sense of what might have been if the Germans had gained Air Superiority, and left their Bf109s in natural silver!