The general decline in standards today

[LizzieMaine]

There was a time when I would have agreed. When Maine legalized medical marijuana, I voted for it, because I believed the hype, and I believed that it was going to be properly regulated as a "medicine." Well, I've seen the results, and if the vote were being held today I'd vote "no." My "yes" vote is one I deeply, deeply, deeply regret.

 

[winterland1]

Peyote....the indians would say, "White men go to church and sing and pray to their God, we Indians use Peyote and walk and talk with God"....

There are many sides to the "POT" debate. It is a risky item for most people to use, as it just seems to hang around where trouble comes along to those that use it often. It may not be much different than "Whiskey" to some people, but at least with a bottle of Jack Daniel's, you know what you have. Some fairly bad stories of people tinkering with POT adding comet cleanser, other chemicals....and then...what happens to the person if they are in contact with Law Enforcement...not one to say what anyone else should or should not wear, but I sure have NO desire to wear handcuffs! LOL

This could turn into a huge debate but how many people each year die from smoking or otherwise ingesting marijuana? none.
Alcohol? I'll let you look up the numbers but it is huge. The amount of people with health problems because of alcohol is huge.
Still many would rather demonize marijuana and turn a blind eye to alcohol. Mostly because of past negative stereotypes about marijuana.
There are many people these days that would rather casually use marijuana instead of alcohol. The jury is still out on long term effects of using it. Still it is obvious to many you do not wake up with a hangover. There is no such thing as an angry pot smoker. Many angry drunks though. Pot smokers do not usually start bar fights.
You don't see pot smokers on the sidewalk panhandling for money to buy more pot.
In other words most who use marijuana compared to alcohol see it has less negative effects.
The legal ramifications for possessing a small amount of marijuana in most places is the equivalent of a traffic ticket. Most law enforcement would rather just dump it on the ground than deal with issuing a citation for it.
The times are a changing.

 

[LizzieMaine]

T There is no such thing and angry pot smoker.

You are dead wrong.

 

[winterland1]

You are dead wrong.

I guess I should have clarified, maybe if the person is an angry person to begin with but marijuana doesn't have the same effect alcohol can of turning people into raving maniacs.
I'm going by personal experience.
How often are you around people on marijuana?

 

[LizzieMaine]

Someone I love very much very nearly had her life destroyed a year ago by THC-induced psychosis. A year later she is still very fragile.

My niece's boyfriend was forcibly committed to a mental hospital earlier this year due to THC-induced psychosis. He had become violent, irrational, and paranoid.

I've looked straight into the eyes of THC-induced psychosis, and it has terrified me to the core of my soul.

That's all the experience I need.

I'm also firmly opposed to alcohol. They're both dangerous, mind-altering, life-damaging poisons.

 

[winterland1]

It depends on the person, why they're using it, and which strain they're using. I have what's known as Post-Laminectomy Syndrome or Failed Back Syndrome (i.e., chronic pain after surgery to repair a herniated disc). Having experienced nine years of treatments that either had no effect or made the pain temporarily worse, I can say from personal experience that medical marijuana was the only thing that completely eliminated the pain. Unfortunately, it only works while you're feeling it's psychotropic effects (i.e., that "stoned" feeling) and there is no cumulative effect, so for me it wasn't a practical solution; I'd rather deal with the pain than be stoned all of the time.

That being said, I'm fully aware that the majority of medical marijuana "patients" are taking advantage of the laws that make marijuana quasi-legal and are claiming to suffer from "fill-in-the-blank" medical conditions just so that they can get high. My point is that for some people, like me, it does have legitimate medicinal value.

Great to hear first-hand experience of someone using it medically. All you have to do is watch many first person accounts of how it has worked for them. This is how our legislators have been convinced to change the laws because people want it and it works.
Use more pharmaceutical drugs with side effects or something natural that grows out of the ground?
Not sure why there are people get all bent out of shape about this. It is all about people just having a better quality of life.

 

[ChiTownScion]

There comes a point in these matters where it has to be conceded that anecdotal accounts arising out of personal experiences only have limited merit when determining broader social policy. "Uncle Willy was a souse who never provided for his wife and kids," and "Cousin Pete was a pothead who could have been successful, but he wasted his life smoking weed" may be perfectly factual accounts. They're not to be diminished or minimalized. I, for example, choose to not drink alcohol and not smoke pot because of similar anecdotes in my own life, and other factors. And based upon similar anecdotes, I choose to not place myself in the position where I could rely upon those who are souses or potheads lest that reliance operate to my detriment.

There does come a time, however, where in considering broader social policy the bigger picture has to be considered. At what point does our drawing of a line of demarcation in the sand - in a sincere attempt to prevent others and those innocents around them from the results of bad lifestyle choices- become arbitrary, intrusive, capricious, draconian, unreasonable, or just poor judgment? The totality of factors at that point has to expand beyond anecdote and subjective experience. That realization doesn't discount personal experience-- it merely acknowledges its limitations.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I don't care about philosophical questions of freedom or policy on this issue, and I freely admit that. I care about the real, palpable harm caused to people I care about by a mendacious culture built on a set of fraudulent beliefs. "Pot is harmless, go ahead and try it, expand your mind, free your soul" is a lie. And people I care about are paying for believing it. I can't go back and change what happened, but I can spend the rest of my life doing everything I possibly can to expose that lie for what it is.

 

[LuvMyMan]

I guess I should have clarified, maybe if the person is an angry person to begin with but marijuana doesn't have the same effect alcohol can of turning people into raving maniacs.
I'm going by personal experience.
How often are you around people on marijuana?

Hello winterland1

I can only say abuse is abuse. In and around me in my life time, I have never seen anyone break into someone's home to rob them of a few appliances, (TV set, microwave oven, coin collection, weapon{gun} to go buy a fifth of Jack Daniels. Not saying it has not happened but I personally do not know anyone that has such a event...but...for pot....oh lord....crime happens a lot from it. Now I am NOT going to justify for the sake of conversation the difference between BOOZE and POT...we all are smart enough to know about the differences. Some argue, they do not want their Dentist to be "high" while a patient is sitting in the Dental Chair about to be drilled-and-filled....I myself would not desire to have a Dentist be HIGH or Bombed out on booze, either.

Do I feel some people can use POT for medical needs, yes. However, I have to look at what the majority of what is really going on with the DRUG scene. Here in Michigan, the medical groups that desire to have POT use, has catered to the larger element of having pot use for daily wing dings that serve no reasonable function other than a function of destruction. So, I myself think the entire issue is of risk for users.

Would I find you, or anyone here on the Lounge that state they use it for a real reason to help with pain control a monster for doing so? No. But I can tell you very honestly from first hand observation of my Husband. He has had the most aggressive form of MS that his medical doctors have ever treated, it has formed lesions on the surface of his skin that follows up from the bones, ripped flesh open and a few organs, the pain he has endured just from that alone...and he has had severe heart issues, a double hernia that had scar tissue after an operation to fix the double hernia then had cancer tumors develope there, has had the tumors removed, only to find he has a mass now growing behind that. His last heart attack left him without the ability to speak clearly or to even hold a glass of water he trembles without control of his hand movements. Pain? Geez....some people would have no real clue what pain is like...and through all this, he still cracks jokes and smiles from ear to ear...he is a real trooper and has never given up. He has been asked by others to use drugs (POT) as much as pain pills....he has about one or two SMALL shots of scotch a day or a beer, and that is it. NO pills or POT to muffle it all off. So yes, I am aware that some people are not my Husband. But I know in the long run, he is far better off dealing with things in a natural way then to take the risk of being hooked on any element that could create an addiction. I can observe what he does every day 24/7 and if he wanted to guzzle down a fifth of Jack D or single malt scotch all he would have to do is ask me to help him do so...but nope. I think I have purchased a new fifth maybe one time every other month....not hard drinking there, right?

I am aware of what LizzieMaine has had to state about someone she loves dear to her and her life. Perhaps it could have been drinking that created a horrible situation instead of POT for that person...but you have to realistically place the blame on "what is" and not what may have been. Not one person has all the answers to the POT over BOOZE debate. I sure do not, and I do NOT push that if you use it you are wicked, evil or beyond help. I just simply think it is all not the answer for the problems a person can have to use it.

Some of the loungers here have had interaction with Daniel. You would never know anyone that has more love and care towards others than what he does. In person you would think of him as that loving happy person you wished your family had more of in it. He draws getting past each and every single day with laughter and humor, love and compassion for everything in life.. THAT has been his real medicine. Crazy as it is, I see the tears of pain make his body just rack enduring pain....but he smiles and says what is in his heart for anyone else. I myself maybe would cave in after enduring that for even a few moments, but I also look at it, if a man such as he can handle it and not give up, other should be able to hack it. More than a handful of Doctors have given him his "pink slip" and informed me I should have "our affairs" in order, one even stated he has the heart and medical health of a dead man....geez....he actually told that Doctor, while suffering in serious pain, "does that mean I'll miss dinner"? So much of what we all do is a part of an attitude. Lose having a loving kind attitude and you can lose your very soul.

 

[winterland1]

It is great to have a caring discussion about this and get opinions and experiences. I always seem to learn something. Luvmyman your husband sounds like one tough dude.

I understand some people being scared of addiction because of past experiences. Sounds like Lizzie has had this experience.

The amount of addictions that are bad for our health must be a long list. Think of people whose health is bad and even die because of overeating, sugar, fats etc. Should we outlaw that? This costs our society dearly and yes we try to educate, a good idea and there are even some laws passed about this. I don't agree with most of these though. How many laws do we need? When does our freedom become more important? We are adults aren't we. Where do we cross the line on making laws based on what someone thinks people should or shouldn't do as long as they are not hurting anyone other than themselves?

I can appreciate everyones opinion as long as it doesn't infinge on my rights.
I think maybe Chitown would agree on this. I could be wrong.

I know some people who have addictive behaviors and can't drink or smoke pot without going overboard. They shouldn't if they can't handle it. On the other hand I know many who casually drink or smoke and are outstanding responsible citizens in their community. Lawyers, business owners etc.

 

[winterland1]

Someone I love very much very nearly had her life destroyed a year ago by THC-induced psychosis. A year later she is still very fragile.

My niece's boyfriend was forcibly committed to a mental hospital earlier this year due to THC-induced psychosis. He had become violent, irrational, and paranoid.

I've looked straight into the eyes of THC-induced psychosis, and it has terrified me to the core of my soul.

That's all the experience I need.

I'm also firmly opposed to alcohol. They're both dangerous, mind-altering, life-damaging poisons.

Lizzy I just saw this post. Sorry to hear. I hope they are better. This is the first time I have heard of this type of reaction. Can I ask how it came to be? Clearly it had to be more than just smoking a little pot on occasion or even everyday. Were they taking other drugs etc? Were there other mental health issues going on?

 

[LizzieMaine]

In the first case, she'd been smoking for about three years without any of us knowing about it, having picked up the habit in college. She finally snapped, went three days without sleeping, became delusional, and then went into a catatonic trance. At first they thought it was mixed with LSD or "spice," or synthetic THC, but it turned out to be simple cannabis-induced psychosis. It took four months of hospitalization and medication and re-hospitalization to get her back on her feet, and she's been warned she can never go near any of that stuff again because every "rebound" will be worse than the one before it. Given the way things are in this town, with drugs on every corner, I live in terror of the possibility that she might be sucked back into it.

In the second case, he'd been smoking pot since his early teens. His parents encouraged it as a way of "unleashing his creativity." Within six months of moving in with my niece, he was spending entire days "high," rolling in his own filth, and unwilling to work, bathe, or even get out of the chair long enough to go to the toilet. When my niece tried to reason with him, he became physically violent. He eventually had to be taken, forcibly, to a mental hospital, where he spent most of last winter. My niece was told, by his psychiatrist, that she should stay as far away from him as she possibly can, because he's dangerous and always will be.

Neither one of them had any family history of mental illness, or any apparent genetic risk of it.

Before this happened, I didn't care one way or another about pot. I had no use for any intoxicant, but it wasn't an issue that I paid much attention to one way or the other. These events woke me up fast, and I can see that the real crime here, the real root of what happened, is that in both cases these kids were victimized by a culture that sold them a lie -- from friends, from the internet, even from parents. It has nothing to do with laws. I don't care about legal arguments or the philosophy of liberty. Cloaking a lie in the guise of freedom is the worst kind of fraud. The entire culture of drugs is a fraud, perpetrated by the stupid and the venal against the ignorant and the deceived. No laws, and no arguments about laws, will ever change that.

 

[jamespowers]

Before this happened, I didn't care one way or another about pot. I had no use for any intoxicant, but it wasn't an issue that I paid much attention to one way or the other. These events woke me up fast, and I can see that the real crime here, the real root of what happened, is that in both cases these kids were victimized by a culture that sold them a lie -- from friends, from the internet, even from parents. It has nothing to do with laws. I don't care about legal arguments or the philosophy of liberty. Cloaking a lie in the guise of freedom is the worst kind of fraud. The entire culture of drugs is a fraud, perpetrated by the stupid and the venal against the ignorant and the deceived. No laws, and no arguments about laws, will ever change that.

Agreed. I am not going to be a commercial for dope pushers so they can profit from legal OR illegal degenerate activity.

 

[LuvMyMan]

Posting this using my phone We recall a while back when LizzieMaine first made mention of her loved ones dealing with the subject of Pot and prayers still go out to her and those that are afflicted
One part of all of this is that it affects every one close to heart

 

[Zombie_61]

There was a time when I would have agreed. When Maine legalized medical marijuana, I voted for it, because I believed the hype, and I believed that it was going to be properly regulated as a "medicine." Well, I've seen the results, and if the vote were being held today I'd vote "no." My "yes" vote is one I deeply, deeply, deeply regret.

In my opinion the real problem lies within the flawed laws created in each city, county, and state, regarding the quasi-legalization of medical marijuana; the Federal government gave them the ball, and they collectively dropped it. Even many of the people responsible for enforcing those laws don't seem to have a clear definition of their intent and, as such, appear to be making up the enforcement of those laws on a case-by-case basis.

My own experience was, admittedly, a bit of a farce. The doctor who issued my "prescription" spoke with my wife and I about my case for maybe 10 minutes, and to this day I have no idea whether or not he ever gave the medical documentation I provided more than a cursory glance; if pressed, I'd have to say he based his "approval" solely on what we told him. And I believe that exacerbates the problem--the people who stand to make money from medical marijuana are playing fast-and-loose with the rules, and those charged with enforcing the laws see that duty as nothing more than another hassle they have to deal with but would rather not. There's no real oversight, so the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

...Most law enforcement would rather just dump it on the ground than deal with issuing a citation for it...

Dump it on the ground? Most of the LEOs I know would "confiscate" it and take it home for personal use. lol

...Use more pharmaceutical drugs with side effects or something natural that grows out of the ground?

This is one aspect of a Federal legalization of medical marijuana that I'm dubious about--pharmaceutical versus natural. Aside from the fact that the big pharmaceutical companies stand to lose a great deal of money if marijuana is legitimately recognized as having medicinal value (i.e., it could potentially replace a lot of currently used medications), those people don't want to stop being pharmacists and start being farmers and horticulturists. So, if medical marijuana were to be approved on a Federal level, my concern is that the pharmaceutical companies responsible for it's development as a legitimate medication would continue to use many of the same laboratory-created chemicals that they're currently using and, in doing so, would contaminate it with the same harmful garbage they're selling now, which would completely defeat the purpose of developing it as a medication in the first place.

That being said, I'm fully aware that the whole "medical" marijuana campaign was/is largely a means to an end--a way to make it easier for "stoners" to have access to a higher quality version of their substance of choice. Unfortunately, inroads are being made for marijuana to be decriminalized for casual use, and that will likely lead to the "medical benefits" research to be forgotten, especially if the big pharmaceutical companies have their way. If that happens, it will condemn people like me (who could benefit from marijuana's medicinal value) to continued use of the currently accepted medications...and all of their harmful side-effects.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I don't buy the "natural" line. Coca leaves grow out of the ground and are a "natural" product, poisonous mushrooms grow out of the ground and are a "natural" product, opium poppies grow out of the ground and are a "natural" product, tobacco plants grow out of the ground and are a "natural" product. And on and on and on. The M P P crowd loves to throw "natural" around like it's some kind of talisman, but that's the sleaziest kind of marketing deception. A "natural" product can be just as dangerous as a manufactured one. Tetrahydrocannabinol is a chemical -- C21H30O2, to be exact -- and that fact that it occurs as part of a plant makes it no less a chemical than something synthesized in a lab. It has the effect that it does only because it *interferes* with the processing of "natural chemicals" that occur in the nervous system. The distinction is nothing less than pure rationalization.

Raw marijuana will never be, and should never be, approved as a legitimate medication, because Federal law requires medications to be delivered in consistent, measurable doses, and to produce consistent, documentable results. They must be uniform and they must be standard, because that's how science, as opposed to voodoo, works. Marinol has been so documented and is available by prescription. Sativex is in the process of being so documented and will soon be available by prescription. But the M P P doesn't want anything to do with these medications because, it claims, "they're products of Big Pharma." That's not the reason at all. M P P rejects these preparations because they don't get the user high, and as has been noted, that's really all they're interested in. They're using the plight of cancer patients, MS patients, and people in chronic pain as catspaws to mask their real agenda, and I think that's despicable.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

In the second case, he'd been smoking pot since his early teens. His parents encouraged it as a way of "unleashing his creativity." Within six months of moving in with my niece, he was spending entire days "high," rolling in his own filth, and unwilling to work, bathe, or even get out of the chair long enough to go to the toilet. When my niece tried to reason with him, he became physically violent. He eventually had to be taken, forcibly, to a mental hospital, where he spent most of last winter. My niece was told, by his psychiatrist, that she should stay as far away from him as she possibly can, because he's dangerous and always will be.

I'm not sure about creativity but it most certainly unleashed something. Too bad his parents can't be prosecuted for child abuse.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'm not sure about creativity but it most certainly unleashed something. Too bad his parents can't be prosecuted for child abuse.

An only child of upper-middle-class parents. He Who Can Do No Wrong.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I don't buy the "natural" line. Coca leaves grow out of the ground and are a "natural" product, poisonous mushrooms grow out of the ground and are a "natural" product, opium poppies grow out of the ground and are a "natural" product, tobacco plants grow out of the ground and are a "natural" product. And on and on and on...

Asbestos is a natural product, but I don't want to draw that into my lungs either.

 

[ChiTownScion]

The amount of addictions that are bad for our health must be a long list. Think of people whose health is bad and even die because of overeating, sugar, fats etc. Should we outlaw that? This costs our society dearly and yes we try to educate, a good idea and there are even some laws passed about this. I don't agree with most of these though. How many laws do we need? When does our freedom become more important? We are adults aren't we. Where do we cross the line on making laws based on what someone thinks people should or shouldn't do as long as they are not hurting anyone other than themselves?

I can appreciate everyones opinion as long as it doesn't infinge on my rights.
I think maybe Chitown would agree on this. I could be wrong.

I know some people who have addictive behaviors and can't drink or smoke pot without going overboard. They shouldn't if they can't handle it. On the other hand I know many who casually drink or smoke and are outstanding responsible citizens in their community. Lawyers, business owners etc.

We've spent countless billions on a failed "war on drugs" over the last decades, and the fruits of our labor include the highest incarceration rate of any nation in the world. The potential for corruption among law enforcement officials who deal with drug cases has been demonstrated in scandal after scandal. Short of out and out legalizing marijuana or other currently illegal substances, the question arises as to what alternatives exist. Treating use and possession as a medical, rather than a law enforcement, issue could be one measure. Decriminalization, where possession of larger amounts is concerned, could result in purely civil remedies, such as imposing heavy fines and asset seizure in satisfaction of those fines if necessary, rather than incarceration.

Rather than define crimes as "violent" vs. "non-violent" I proposed earlier that the line be drawn between malum in se and malum prohibitum offenses. Drug offenses are, as any study of the history of common law will make clear, malum prohibitum crimes. Accordingly, as the costs of incarcerating offenders continue to soar in a time of ever decreasing public resources, common sense dictates that the decriminalizing of drug offenses is inevitable. It is only a matter of time. The only issue is whether it can be done prudently.