The general decline in standards today

[TomS]

One needs to remember that any charges need to go before a court of law. One of the main things to look at is were a person's actions "reasonable in the circumstances".

As far as the second law is concerned, in those circumstances it would have been reasonable to discharge the firearm to save lives. If the concealment law was brought before a court, I doubt any jury would convict the perpetrator (in the circumstances).

Sir, you are correct. Thank you for this explanation.

 

[TomS]

Thanks, TomS!

You're quite welcome, PSG. I appreciate the spirited discussion, and your interesting input :eusa_clap

 

[TomS]

How sad.
Then that means any citizen is at the complete mercy of an armed criminal if confronted.
Don't stand a chance...............

Please see my recent reply to PSG, re: self defense. I'm not saying defending yourself, or someone else, will be an easy row to hoe, as it were. However, doing the right thing NEVER comes easy, but that doesnt mean it isnt a valid pursuit. Just my .02 ...

 

[PrettySquareGal]

You're quite welcome, PSG. I appreciate the spirited discussion, and your interesting input :eusa_clap

Thank you!

 

[TomS]

Thank-you all. I enjoy the discussion, and diverse opinions on the matter!!

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Thank-you all. I enjoy the discussion, and diverse opinions on the matter!!

Me too. I think that spirited yet respectful and fact-based dialog is what this country needs most.

 

[MikeBravo]

I believe that "illegal" and "reasonable" aren't compatible in the courts. In other words, no matter how much sense an action makes, or lives an action could save, if it's illegal according to the books, no one is above the law.

Anyway, my point is that some states have crazy laws that go against common sense and safety like stopping a massacre with deadly force. I was originally challenged for suggesting otherwise.

Agreed, no one is above the law. Any acts that may be illegal have to be investigated and then it must be determined (in Australia by the Director of Public Prosecutions, on the US I believe by the District Attorney) if there is sufficient evidence for the matter to go to court.

It is then up to the courts to decide, usually by a jury, the guilt or innocence of the Defendant.

Under the principal of "separation of powers" the laws are made by politicians (the Legislature)** and the matter of "reasonableness" is determined by the courts (the Judiciary). This is hopefully done without any political interference, hence citizens are protected from the whims of politicians and their various lobby groups.

** (hence the craziness of said laws)

 

[hatophile]

The problem with shooting back at this guy, is, he was prepared with kevlar gear on his trunk neck head and legs. How do you deal with someone like that? Even the police would have had a hard time taking him out!

 

[AmateisGal]

The problem with shooting back at this guy, is, he was prepared with kevlar gear on his trunk neck head and legs. How do you deal with someone like that? Even the police would have had a hard time taking him out!

Yes, I've heard that mentioned, too. I keep wishing someone had just come from behind and tackled him.

 

[1961MJS]

The problem with shooting back at this guy, is, he was prepared with kevlar gear on his trunk neck head and legs. How do you deal with someone like that? Even the police would have had a hard time taking him out!

Hi

Head shot, even if it hits the mask will blind him to some respect. He was close enough to touch by most of the customers. I attended Batman in Wichita over the weekend, and the consensus was "I hope everyone brought their gun to the theater." No VISIBLE police presence.

I also understand that getting shot while wearing Kevlar hurts pretty bad. The bullet may not penetrate, but it's still like getting hit with a baseball bat (no personal experience). Even those guys in FULL BODY armor in California years ago finally got shot.

Just my $0.04

 

[Widebrim]

I also understand that getting shot while wearing Kevlar hurts pretty bad. The bullet may not penetrate, but it's still like getting hit with a baseball bat (no personal experience). Even those guys in FULL BODY armor in California years ago finally got shot.

Just my $0.04

Correct on both counts. Just the impact alone of getting hit can knock you out and cause damage, especially at close range, and Kevlar helmets/body armor are not impenetrable.

 

[TomS]

Kevlar helmets/body armor are not impenetrable.

That's probably why most police departments that did not deploy patrol rifles prior to *Hollywood* did so shortly thereafter. I recall hearing about folks "on the job" in L.A. sacking a sporting goods store for rifles during that watershed event.

 

[sheeplady]

Correct on both counts. Just the impact alone of getting hit can knock you out and cause damage, especially at close range, and Kevlar helmets/body armor are not impenetrable.

It would also depend on what he was shot with, as well. Even at a decent range (say 20-40 feet) some things (like buck shot or a shotgun shell from a 12 gauge) would have torn right through the kevlar. But it's also unlikely that anyone would have a shotgun in the theater with a concealed carry, but the responding police would have had them. (At least, around here, they frequently use shotguns for hostage situations and people armed and holed up in their homes.)

However, one of the things I have never understood is why when these incidents happen, it's rare (I can't think of a case except a stabbing) to see someone take a shot at the guy. Is it that these events typically occur in states that ban concealed carry?

 

[LizzieMaine]

I wonder how many people who carry have ever actually been faced with a situation where they had to shoot or be shot? How many of them would react, under such circumstances, as they would hope to react, and how many would simply freeze? I don't mean people with full military or police training -- I mean Joe Blow with a .45 under his coat. Under the circumstances how does anyone, without specific professional training, know how they'd react?

 

[jamespowers]

However, one of the things I have never understood is why when these incidents happen, it's rare (I can't think of a case except a stabbing) to see someone take a shot at the guy. Is it that these events typically occur in states that ban concealed carry?

There have been many incidences but they never get any press. One at a school and one at a mall recently.

 

[jamespowers]

I wonder how many people who carry have ever actually been faced with a situation where they had to shoot or be shot? How many of them would react, under such circumstances, as they would hope to react, and how many would simply freeze? I don't mean people with full military or police training -- I mean Joe Blow with a .45 under his coat. Under the circumstances how does anyone, without specific professional training, know how they'd react?

I imagine sort of like this:
The Post, Houston, TX
In the finest tradition of armed citizens who take on crime in their communities, Texan Travis Neel helped save a wounded Harris County deputy sheriff's life. Witnessing the shooting by one of a trio of Houston gang members after a traffic stop just west of Houston, Neel--who was on his way to his pistol range--pulled his gun and fired, driving the officer's assailants away. An off-duty sheriff's deputy also came on the scene and joined Neel in covering the deputy, whose life was saved by his body armor. The trio was captured after a manhunt.


The Bulletin, Norwich, CT
While the situation ended without incident, armed citizen Michael Acree stood ready to lend a hand when a police officer stopped a carload of unruly teenagers outside his Salem, Connecticut, home. Noticing the youths scuffling with the officer, Acree retrieved his pistol and went out onto his lawn. When the youths saw Acree and his handgun, they calmed down and the situation ended peaceably. Acree earned the appreciation both of town officials and the officer.


The Daily Commercial, Leesburg, FL
Vincent McCarthy wasn't afraid to lend a hand when he noticed a police officer struggling with a man and woman at the side of the road. He tried to help subdue the man who was kicking the officer in the face. Despite McCarthy's warnings, when the man pressed his assault, the tour boat captain shot him once in the leg with a pistol he is licensed to carry and stopped the attack. Neither the officer nor McCarthy were seriously injured.


The Observer, Charlotte, NC
A North Myrtle Beach, N.C., citizen was credited by the city's public safety director with possibly saving the life of Police Officer Richard Jernick. Jernick had pulled over a suspected bank robber's car after a chase, when the suspect charged the cruiser and pointed a gun at the officer, who was still behind the wheel. At that point authorities said, the robbery suspect saw that James Beach, a semi-retired electrician who had joined the pursuit, had a pistol pointed at him. Startled, the robber ran for his car, and Officer Jernick was able to shoot and wound him.

 

[scottyrocks]

I wonder how many people who carry have ever actually been faced with a situation where they had to shoot or be shot? How many of them would react, under such circumstances, as they would hope to react, and how many would simply freeze? I don't mean people with full military or police training -- I mean Joe Blow with a .45 under his coat. Under the circumstances how does anyone, without specific professional training, know how they'd react?

Just as it is when driving a car, I would hope that before anyone is issued a gun permit/license, there would be training which would include the psychological aspects or owning and carrying a gun. Education makes a difference. Requiring gun owners to take refresher courses every couple of years couldn't hurt, either. As Ben Parker said, 'With great power comes great responsibility.' Training should be mandatory for the privilege of possessing great power.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Under the circumstances how does anyone, without specific professional training, know how they'd react?

They don't...even many with training. Anything under stress is quite different than a controlled situation.
However...if everyone is empty handed...there is no chance to do anything but freeze or try and hide.
Not many would ever try to stop an armed shooter without something to better level the playing field.
HD

 

[Undertow]

...I keep thinking if there had been one, just one, properly armed and competently trained citizen, this tragedy may well have been averted.

I'm sorry if I poop on the parade here, but I think as a police officer (and some of the others commenting) should well know, this is a textbook case to duck, cover and at the very least wait for conditions to improve, but more probably get to safety.

A dark movie theater. Smoke, possibly tear gas, rising to obstruct view. Running civilians, multiple victims with varying degrees of mobility. A protected assailant (body armor) with assault gear and weapons.

It doesn't really matter how much John Rambo you have in your blood, the second you start squeezing off rounds from your service pistol, or your illegally concealed firearm, you're putting everyone in that theater in even further danger, not to mention yourself. Additionally, a court full of god-fearing, red blooded conservative NRA members is going to look down their noses at you when [x] amount of body count is attributed to your valiant attempts at stopping the shooter.

Moral of the story - this kid, whether a sociopath, psychopath or experiment gone wrong, etc. killed a dozen innocent people. As angry as it makes us, we can't pretend that conditions were favorable for a responsible concealed firearm response.

(This is coming from a fella who has had his ccw for years, and would love to have been a hero in that moment. [huh])

 

[scottyrocks]

Aurora was an absolute no-win situation. The safest way it could have been stopped would have been something out of a Die- Hard movie - crawling up an aisle until you were just under him and firing upwards so as not endanger anyone with cross fire. Never happen in real life.