The general decline in standards today

[SGT Rocket]

Bluebird, I have a friend I knew in college who was working on is PhD in philosophy. He did then, and I think he still does, landscaping for a local golf course. He had about $100k in loans that last I talked to him.

 

[Widebrim]

The problem modern society faces is largely one of assuming that "other people" will always be around to do the distasteful/menial jobs that need to be done. But what happens when those "other people" get sick and tired of being "others?"

Like my mother has often said, "Who's gonna clean the fish?"

 

[The Good]

While we're talking about the college thing, I'm also in the same camp. I'm pursuing a history major (maybe minoring in archaeology or anthropology, perhaps English too?), and I don't have much of an idea of what I where I want to go with this. I don't really have a desire to teach, at least not yet, and I would rather be doing something "behind the scenes" with regard to furthering the preservation and discovery of history. I'm thinking archaeology would be the closest thing to what I'm describing, or being an archivist. There is a place for just about any profession, although it seems clear today that there are too many concentrated in several directions, while the nation could benefit from more involved with other jobs instead.

 

[Bluebird Marsha]

Bluebird, I have a friend I knew in college who was working on is PhD in philosophy. He did then, and I think he still does, landscaping for a local golf course. He had about $100k in loans that last I talked to him.

I have a friend who pursued a PhD in Philosophy. It was his undergrad degree, and even after he got his Master's in Library Science, he wanted that PhD. But he did it the "right" way. He was accepted at UConn, and his tuition was covered while he worked as a teaching assistant. The job paid just enough to support him. And I do mean barely. But he didn't mind doing the poor student routine. He did decide that he wanted to go back to being a librarian, so he got out with an MA in Philosophy. The consolation prize for not completing a dissertation. But he had no debt when he left.

Same thing with an Air Force Colonel I knew. After he retired he wanted a PhD in Engineering. Same deal. University of Michigan as a teaching assistant, paid tuition, and left with no debt. But he did have a pension and his wife had a good job, so no net change in lifestyle. But he only wanted a deal that paid the full tuition. Which he got- not at MIT like he wanted, but he only complained a little.

Good, there are ways to do it. I will say that with archaeology, you are facing some very stiff competition. And most field archaeologists are also professors. It would be almost impossible to untangle those two, since most digs and expeditions are underwritten by universities. Everyone wants to be Indiana Jones (who WAS a teacher). I would suggest that as long as you aren't putting yourself into major debt, pursue the degree you're interested in. If you're interested in archival work, I'd suggest you also look into restoration. I'm a librarian/cataloger, and I'm not that knowledgeable about that field, but there are specialties in restoring manuscripts, maps, art, and other items. That may be something you should look into. I'd suggest contacting the Society of American Archivists for better info. http://www2.archivists.org/

For what it's worth, a married couple I am friends with are librarians, and have about $100k in debt between them, They also make about $100k a year between them, so debt can be handled.

 

[HungaryTom]

The Age of Aquarius

Since the Age of Pisces is coming to an end the norms of it as we knew it for the last 2000 or so years are also coming to an end. The individual conscious activities are replaced by unconscious activities of the masses. Aquarius seems to bring a deluge from within, a flood of unconsciousness, of dumbing, when netherworldly subconscious rises to the top and the previously precious falls down. Gentlemen's clubs are substituted with social networking. The ideal of a widely educated man is substituted with electronic age people who don't read books etc. Discussions in person with digitalized and atomized people. This is than expressed in all walks of life, fashion&clothing, behaviour, morals etc.

So the decline of the standards of an era that is dissolving is all natural. The code of the West were rooting in the Greco-Roman (philosophy) and Medieval periods (chivalry), which were continued by the ethos of the burgeoisie symbolized by the gentleman. Our culture has clearly peeked in the 19th century until WW1 it survived still until WW2 but after the 1960s the collapse of the colonial world, the cultural shock this was on the decline. The set of character ideals and ethos were the preconditions for being and belonging to the genteel middle class - even if one was impoverished one could be a "gentleman" if the set of behaviour was right. However as times have changed through the 20th century this 19th century ideal of a gentleman is finally coming to an end. Just like when Christianity changed the face of the West and the pagan Antique which came to an end together with their lifestyles idols and ideals.
You are witnessing this end also in the West - which comes from within. In the East it ended after 1945 through the Soviet system, although it was carried on still by parts of the generation who were gentry and were born and raised pre-1945. But now I see really an ending of it and the change to the new X Y whtever generations with clearly totally different attitude. Nowadays even a 5 years age difference mark significant cultural differences.

 

[sheeplady]

But he did it the "right" way. He was accepted at UConn, and his tuition was covered while he worked as a teaching assistant. The job paid just enough to support him. And I do mean barely. But he didn't mind doing the poor student routine.

In many fields, this is the way to go. I have two masters, and I never paid a single penny for them. I've had to work during the semesters to earn my free tutition and stipends, from 10 hours to 20 hours a week 9 months a year. I have had one year paid for by a fellowship. I've had 5 years paid during my doctorate. Post-docs are typically paid decently, if your field means you need a post-doctorate experience (or two). You don't live a glamorous life, but you don't do a PhD to obtain a glam-filled life.

The one thing that any potential doctoral student needs to consider is the job market for PhDs. Unfortunately, some fields which need many TAs to teach sections of large undergraduate courses (think things like Psych, english, history, etc.), so they take on many more PhD students than can actually be hired. It is a much more competitive market for those grads.

Now, of course, if you are going for an MBA, a law degree, or an MD, it's expected that you're going to make the money coming out to pay for your many years of schooling, so there is almost no financial assistance.

 

[Pompidou]

While we're talking about the college thing, I'm also in the same camp. I'm pursuing a history major (maybe minoring in archaeology or anthropology, perhaps English too?), and I don't have much of an idea of what I where I want to go with this. I don't really have a desire to teach, at least not yet, and I would rather be doing something "behind the scenes" with regard to furthering the preservation and discovery of history. I'm thinking archaeology would be the closest thing to what I'm describing, or being an archivist. There is a place for just about any profession, although it seems clear today that there are too many concentrated in several directions, while the nation could benefit from more involved with other jobs instead.

I graduated with a BA in history, and like you, realized pretty quickly that it's not a major you take for the money. I had no official minors, but it'd be fair to call literature, anthropology and philosophy as possibilities. I tried to take classes with overlap, for example, taking enlightenment philosophy with the corresponding history course. I never have used my degree. I kind of like saying I got a degree just for the sake of having one, and that I simply studied anything that piqued my interest and let the major pick itself. I've always had a respect for the totally unrealistic, whimsical lifestyle.

 

[LizzieMaine]

All of which discussion takes us back to the question posed earlier and never answered: when everybody has an advanced degree, when everybody is busy with Intellectual Pursuits, who will keep the roads paved? Who will keep the water flowing? Who will keep the generators running? Who will maintain the vehicles? Who will keep the nuts and bolts of civilization tightened? Or do we just keep on the way we are and end up as the Eloi and the Morlocks?

An interesting Golden Era take on these questions can be found in George R. Stewart's 1949 novel "Earth Abides," which has some pretty profound lessons to teach about our future if we're willing to face them.

 

[sheeplady]

In the end, it is a flase dicotomy: you're an intellectual versus a "nuts and bolts" person, with no crossing? So a machinist is obviously a nuts and bolts person, even if they design things. And an engineer is obviously an intellectual, even if they work as a GC in construction. And a landscape designer is not an intellectual, because they work in the mud even though they have a MS. A doctor is obviously an intellectual, because they have all that education, regardless if they fix human nuts and bolts. And a mechanic that uses advanced diagonostic systems can't be intellectual, because they use a wrench.

I know plenty of young people who work in construction and have become skilled tradespeople, like mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc. Most have advanced training if not a college degree, because their profession increasingly requires it. To be competitive they need the skills. Most attend seminars or additional training on a regular basis.

I've worked some with people who have lost their jobs late in life due to layoffs. Most were looking for minimum wage jobs- working in the grocery store as a clerk, working in fast food, etc. Low paying service jobs- the "easiest" jobs to get by their own descriptions. But every job they interviewed for wanted computer skills, even if the job only required use of a register or inventory system, potential employers wanted "computer skills" beyond what was needed on the job. This was a huge barrier to these individuals. That's an example of the crossing of the skill threshold.

 

[Pompidou]

It might be a false dichotomy philosophically, but it's not in the mindset of high school students exploring their future careers. You don't get steered towards trades. Jeff Foxworthy had at least one joke about a less than bright individual being destined for a job with his name on his shirt. The stereotype isn't going away anytime soon. What might happen years from now is that supply and demand will upset the status quot and schools will be encouraged by the government to really push the trades. When the government said, "push the maths and sciences" to keep our technological growth ahead of world competitors, it was done. If the government essentially says, "Look, we could really use some plumbers, and there's budget assistance for schools that tow the line," it'll happen.

 

[Harp]

While we're talking about the college thing, I'm also in the same camp. I'm pursuing a history major (maybe minoring in archaeology or anthropology, perhaps English too?), and I don't have much of an idea of what I where I want to go with this. I don't really have a desire to teach, at least not yet, and...

Another history major here; switched premed, went to law school,
and now scribbling a PhD thesis-philosophy.

Consider college as preparation for Life.
Read everything, take a liberal curriculum-seek out the most demanding professors who assign the toughest work load; and understand that no college/university will specifically prepare you for the three or more radically different fields you will probably enter. Prepare your march through life and to grapple with fate from the advantage knowledge
affords of human achievement and experience.
Your mind is your best weapon, so hone it to a razor while you are young.

 

[djd]

I studied ancient and medieval history and have then worked in law enforcement for the last twenty- two years... People laugh, but the process of studying history was actually pretty good preparation for criminal investigation work.

I believe that education is valuable for it's own sake if it broadens the mind. It doesn't have to be in any way vocational to have value. Sadly, the way it's going in the uk only the rich will be able to study 'useless' subjects such as history... Dark days

 

[mercuryfelt76]

Stevie, you are very right in your assessments.

I teach in a very urban neighborhood, and the kids who need the most discipline, from almost the moment they walk into school, have no fear. It all came to a head for me, so to speak, when a first grader head-butted her teacher. The teacher is out, and the kid is walking around the school with an ipod and earplugs, bopping and grinding like she's out at a night club. A first grader!

It has come to the point that there is virtually nothing anyone can do to discipline children. I can't tell you how many times I've had meetings with the same kids' parents for the same inappropriate behaviors, and the parent 'sternly' lectures the child, and the next day the cycle starts all over again. Often the child looks right a teacher and smiles while doing the very well known inappropriate behaviors, as if to say, f**k you, man, I'm gonna whatever I want and there ain't a thing you can do about it!' And basically, that's what it's come down to. And basically, if you're screwing around and creating havoc, you can't learn nearly as well as if you actually have your head into what you're doing instead of having a 'good time.'

So when you hear on the radio or on TV or in the papers that teachers are not doing their jobs, think about the fact that if a child digs his/her heels in and doesn't want to do 'the right thing' for whatever reason, there is basically not a thing to be done about it. And this policy doesn't come from the teachers, or even school administration. This hands-off approach comes right from the top, and it's all based on the often talked about here relaxing of societal standards. Today, anything goes.

Positive reinforcement works well when it does work, as it does for the large numbers of children who actually have a clue because their parents had one or two to give them. But there are growing numbers of children who were borderline behavior problems who are being sucked into the lowest common denominator way of thinking because they see there's really nothing anyone can do about it.

Years ago, we had what I have been calling a 'healthy fear.' We didn't walk around cowering all the time, but we knew that there would be consequences for our actions, and I can think of maybe one kid in my elementary school who was even close in weird behavior to what I see as a healthy third of the population in my school today.

I can't tell you how many times, for example, I've had meetings with the parents of an unruly child, and the parent's response is, 'Yeah, he's like that at home, too, and I don't know what to do about it!' I just mentally roll my eyes in my head because I cannot tell people how to raise their children. That's not my job, and people can take offense if you even question their tactics, especially when it comes to their children. But they don't know what to do about it? Oh, puh-leeeease!

The 'old ways' are necessary. We can see the results of not using them right now. But we won't see a return to them as long as everyone continues to blame everyone else for the problems. You can't correct something you can't acknowledge.

Sorry, I've only just found this thread but I had to stop here and say I agree with what you're saying Scottyrocks. But I feel it would be rude of me to state my opinion without reading the rest of the thread. I'm enjoying this so far though I sense debate...

 

[HungaryTom]

Like my mother has often said, "Who's gonna clean the fish?"

Lizzie, Widebrim,

The same question begs here as well, everybody becomes too fine for manual labour and the BAs ad MAs MSc BSc MBAs and PhDs are unemployed or do jobs which are below their academic level. The trick of todays world...
Automatization, streamlined processes make 50-80 percent of people in the active age superfluous, and nobody has a clue as to what degrees will provide works hence the new slogan "life-long-learning".
If I see US car industry disappearing, in Europe railway, post being rationalized i.e. the workers being dumped in masses - those jobs were said to be boring monotonous but at least a lifetime giving safe retirement. Now they are not.

So one can learn a lot get educated and be prepared to take on anything if life dictates so.

 

[sheeplady]

I work in IT. I know programs that cannot get enough students into their 2 and 4 year programs for the employers that recruit (or want to recruit) from these schools. There are actually employers who walk away having only recruited 2 or 3 students when they wanted to recruit 10 or more from that school- there simply aren't enough US students going into IT at the undergraduate or master's level.

IT-related jobs are one of the highest paying careers one can get right out of a BS or BA program in the US. With a BS, you can easily land a job that pays a minimum of 40-50 thousand a year starting out, more if you are a top performer or are going to a large city.

My master's level courses are filled with international students because somebody has got to fill the jobs at these US companies. My school goes to India, China, and many countries in Africa and Eastern Europe to recruit students, because otherwise we can't meet the needs of the employers that recruit at our school. (We pay most of our masters students' stipends and 3/4 of their tuition.)

This isn't about not getting the top US students or international students being better suited for these careers; US students simply do not want to go into IT. So, to me, the idea that there is some kind of glut of college degree adults across the board is stunning. In IT we don't have enough students going to college.

 

[flyfishark]

Another history major here; switched premed, went to law school,
and now scribbling a PhD thesis-philosophy.

Harp...I went to law school prior to a doctorate in history, too. I taught American Colonial history and undergraduate law for 15 years while maintaining a practice on the side. Obviously, I had to pick-and-choose my cases, but, toward the end I only had to be on campus 15 hours a week--including office hours and committee assignments. That left lots of time for my practice. My time at the university was wonderful.

 

[Miss Moonlight]

This feeling that 'kids these days' are somehow worse than kids of another day, that things are worse now than ever... every generation talks about this.

Recall the Socrates quote?

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

ATTRIBUTION: Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato, according to William L.
Patty and Louise S. Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277
(1953)

And

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond
words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise
[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" (Hesiod, 8th century BC)

This isn't all about the times. My sister has children she's raised well and with manners and has taught them critical thinking, and when people ask how she managed to raise these great kids, her answer is that she parented them. I plan to do the same with my daughter. That's what it comes down to in any era.

 

[Chas]

So what you're saying is that the world has been going to hell in a handbasket for over 2000 years now.

I wonder when it will get there....

 

[Pompidou]

So what you're saying is that the world has been going to hell in a handbasket for over 2000 years now.

I wonder when it will get there....

It's either been going to hell in a handbasket for 2,000 years, or people have been overreacting every generation for 2,000 years.

 

[djd]

The problem now is not so much the younger generation. The problem as I see it is that the older generation now has never 'grown up' in the sense of accepting responsiblity for anything.