The general decline in standards today

[jamespowers]

Meanwhile, here's an interesting piece on the reality of cigarette smuggling in the modern era -- a global problem involving the collusion of, among others, worldwide tobacco corporations, Chinese and Russian "entrepreneurs," organized crime in North America and Europe, and Indian tribes in both Canada and the United States. Over 600 billion cigarettes a year -- 11 percent of the total world production -- are distributed on the black market.

A perfect example of what would happen with legal dope.

 

[vitanola]

Meanwhile, here's an interesting piece on the reality of cigarette smuggling in the modern era -- a global problem involving the collusion of, among others, worldwide tobacco corporations, Chinese and Russian "entrepreneurs," organized crime in North America and Europe, and Indian tribes in both Canada and the United States. Over 600 billion cigarettes a year -- 11 percent of the total world production -- are distributed on the black market.

Hmm, counterfeit cigarettes clandestinely manufactured in areas where central government control is weak and law enforcement nonexistent, shipped across borders through "free trade zones" in places like Panama and Dubai , all in the name of fulfilling demand and the avoidance of taxes. Well, as long as the smugglers do not engage in coercion it sounds pretty good, don't it? Those centers of counterfeit cigarette manufacture, Guangdong, The Tri-border region and Königsberg might be considered Libertarian paradises, with governments so weak that they may be easily drowned in the bath tub

 

[John in Covina]

Demand? What do you mean demand? NO country has ever "Demanded" a drug problem. Drugs are not bought, they are sold. The British forced drugs on China in the 1840s because they needed the money for their imperialist objectives in India. The CIA forced drugs on America because they needed the money for their imperialist objectives in Europe, Vietnam, South America, and the Middle East.

What do the people have to say about it? What do the police have to say about it when their government tells them to back off and not prosecute the sellers of drugs and illegal firearms?

Strange - if no one "bought" the drugs there would be no drug trade. I have never seen anyone forced to take drugs ever. There is a market for drugs because some people need them to escape from their reality. People may try them because they are curious but there are few drugs that will get people addicted on the first try. When "people" buy drugs they create a demand. Here it is not the CIA that has a stake in the drug trade it is the Mexican mafia, certain biker gangs, and local gangs who use the sale to fund their nefarious schemes.

 

[LizzieMaine]

A perfect example of what would happen with legal dope.

Even more shocking: over half of all cigarettes sold in the state of New York are black market.

 

[Lady Day]

Devil's Advocate:

I'm in CA and we practically trip over pot. The smell of feet can be on the air at any given time of the day. It's gross. Do I care if people do it, not really, actually, no. Studies (yeah, studies) have shown pot to be vertically un addictive, not a 'gate way' drug, and help holistically for a number of ailments. Again, would I smoke it. NO! Same reason I would never, ever smoke a cigarette. I've seen enough people in my life die from smoking.

But I see some of its possible revenue benefits, and fiscal savings from decriminalization and those bennies outweigh us not attempting to legalize it nationally. They did the same thing with booze at the start of the 1900s and it is by fare a worse drug than pot. Just sayin'

 

[Stanley Doble]

Strange - if no one "bought" the drugs there would be no drug trade. I have never seen anyone forced to take drugs ever. There is a market for drugs because some people need them to escape from their reality. People may try them because they are curious but there are few drugs that will get people addicted on the first try. When "people" buy drugs they create a demand. Here it is not the CIA that has a stake in the drug trade it is the Mexican mafia, certain biker gangs, and local gangs who use the sale to fund their nefarious schemes.

Where do you think they get the stuff? The CIA has been involved in drugs, and other crimes, for a long long time.

 

[Pompidou]

If cigarettes and alcohol are going to be legal, so should the other drugs. After all, it's arguable that the only reason pot and opium are illegal in the first place is because Mexicans and Chinese favored them, respectively- same reason crack penalties are more severe than coke penalties. There's a definite legal tolerance for the so to speak white man's drugs. Me, I stick to coffee and beer as my drugs of choice, but I say to each their own. Legalize it all and tax the stuff- prostitution too, while they're at it.

 

[sheeplady]

Even more shocking: over half of all cigarettes sold in the state of New York are black market.

I don't like the implications of including American Indian made cigarettes in that article with "illegal" cigarettes. Nation territory is a sovereign nation and part of their rights are to sell goods tax-free (as long as those goods are legal in the U.S.). The U.S. government doesn't get to cry because they made a few promises that backfired on them and worked out the advantage of the nations in the ultra-slanted treaties they made.

I grew up in the northern border of former Oneida territory. I'm not going to pretend that the Oneida Nation's success hasn't brought up issues for the surrounding community when it comes to issues like property taxes, but I'm not going to begrudge them their success like a lot of local people do. I can remember a time when they had nothing and the success they have had didn't come easy or overnight.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Indian tribes are allowed to manufacture and sell cigarettes tax-free only for on-reservation use. If they sell to others for resale off-reservation, they're required to collect state taxes -- that's the law in New York. When the tribes become involved in widespread, organized bootlegging, they become, and shoudl become, subject to the same laws as everyone else.

As far as medicinal use of marijuana goes, I look at that the same way as oxycocet and such things -- there's a big difference between using a substance under a doctor's supervision for a legitimate medical purpose and using it just to intoxicate yourself. And I think a lot of the pro-legalization, George-Washington-Grew-Hemp propaganda is simply whipped up to make it seem like getting cooked *isn't* the main interest of the pro-legalization movement. I'd respect them more if they'd just stand up and say "yeah, we're potheads and we wanna get high, man." I wouldn't be any more inclined to support them, but at least their position would be an honest one.

"And, like, you can make rope and really cool macrame plant holders out of it, man. And, like, crime in the inner city is totally not cool. Whooooo, 420!"

And I think powder cocaine ought to be just as heavily penalized as the other stuff. I worked for a cokehead who was a truly contemptible human being in every way, and the drugs multiplied those qualities a thousandfold. There are enough rotten SOBs in the world in an undrugged state, we don't need to be making it easy for them to be even worse. I'd like nothing better than to see such "respectable white folks" tossed into a deep, dark prison hole for a while.

 

[jamespowers]

As far as medicinal use of marijuana goes, I look at that the same way as oxycocet and such things -- there's a big difference between using a substance under a doctor's supervision for a legitimate medical purpose and using it just to intoxicate yourself. And I think a lot of the pro-legalization, George-Washington-Grew-Hemp propaganda is simply whipped up to make it seem like getting cooked *isn't* the main interest of the pro-legalization movement. I'd respect them more if they'd just stand up and say "yeah, we're potheads and we wanna get high, man." I wouldn't be any more inclined to support them, but at least their position would be an honest one.

"And, like, you can make rope and really cool macrame plant holders out of it, man. And, like, crime in the inner city is totally not cool. Whooooo, 420!"

And I think powder cocaine ought to be just as heavily penalized as the other stuff. I worked for a cokehead who was a truly contemptible human being in every way, and the drugs multiplied those qualities a thousandfold. There are enough rotten SOBs in the world in an undrugged state, we don't need to be making it easy for them to be even worse. I'd like nothing better than to see such "respectable white folks" tossed into a deep, dark prison hole for a while.

Amen! Dopeheads think we are as high as they are to accept excuses like that.

 

[alanfgag]

Strange - if no one "bought" the drugs there would be no drug trade. I have never seen anyone forced to take drugs ever. There is a market for drugs because some people need them to escape from their reality. People may try them because they are curious but there are few drugs that will get people addicted on the first try. When "people" buy drugs they create a demand. Here it is not the CIA that has a stake in the drug trade it is the Mexican mafia, certain biker gangs, and local gangs who use the sale to fund their nefarious schemes.

Perhaps a parallel to those addicted to vintage clothes and accessories and the eBay pushers that live off their weakness.

 

[jamespowers]

Perhaps a parallel to those addicted to vintage clothes and accessories and the eBay pushers that live off their weakness.

:rofl:

 

[sheeplady]

Indian tribes are allowed to manufacture and sell cigarettes tax-free only for on-reservation use. If they sell to others for resale off-reservation, they're required to collect state taxes -- that's the law in New York. When the tribes become involved in widespread, organized bootlegging, they become, and shoudl become, subject to the same laws as everyone else.

There's a good deal of question concerning the legitimacy of that law when looking at cigarettes manufactured on nation land. The governor of NYS pushed very aggressively to start legally taxing cigarettes manufactured elsewhere (something which was not done previously) and has stated that this is widespread enough to include the manufacture of goods made on reservation land, which you either agree with or not depending upon your reading of the various treaties and sovereignty laws. Several nations in NYS have attempted to take the issue to the supreme court, most notably the Senecas.

It is certainly not a cut and dry issue and is part of a legal battle that has been going on for well over 30 years.... it's just attracting the attention of NYS officials now because nations like the Oneidas have more than 32 acres on a hillside of rocks. Personally, I think a lot of it is motivated by racism... various Indian nations have sold cigarettes, gas, etc. for decades upon decades from reservation land, but NYS has only gotten concerned and gone after them once the nation's had something of value in the past 5-10 years. You can't ignore something "illegal" for years and then decide when it's convenient for you that you do something about it. It's either illegal or it isn't.

I'm sorry, but having seen the way NYS has harassed the nations in recent years I don't have much charity left for the government.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Those dreaded words
"We're from the Government and we're here to help."

 

[Gregg Axley]

Those dreaded words
"We're from the Government and we're here to help."

Just sign here, in triplicate.

 

[jamespowers]

Just sign here, in triplicate.

And give in blood.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Those dreaded words
"We're from the Government and we're here to help."

My reply: "The last time you "helped" me you wrecked my communities with your little white candy, Get outta here!!!!"

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'm reviving this thread because I'm angry. Not whiny internet-message-board angry, not there-she-goes-again angry, but blood-spitting, red-eyed rage angry. And right now there isn't a damn thing I can do about it, which makes me even angrier.

This afternoon, a young woman I care about very much is strapped to a hospital bed in an intensive care unit under heavy sedation. She is twenty-five years old, she's worked for me at the theatre for the past five years, and she had another job as a children's librarian in a neighboring town. She's a good, smart, decent young woman, and eight days ago she made a mistake that could cost her her life.

Eight days ago she was "hanging out with friends," when one of them offered her a joint. She wasn't a pothead by any means, not any kind of a habitual drug user, but to be social she took it. Everyone else was, pot is harmless they all say, don't be so uptight, it's relaxing and helps you fit in, etc. etc. etc., all the stuff you hear, all the stuff they tell you. She took it and smoked it. She didn't sleep that night. A day later she was feeling hyperactive and euphoric. She didn't sleep that night. The next day she was still hyperactive and euphoric. She didn't sleep that night and late that night she called me and nearly incoherent. The next morning she didn't show up for work. I sent one of the other kids to her apartment to check on her, and she was in a state of uncontrollable mania. They went to the hospital emergency room, the emergency room sniffed -- huh, kid with no insurance, snort -- gave her a sleeping pill and sent her home. She didn't sleep that night, and spent most of the night screaming and hallucinating. The next morning she was rushed to the hospital, and she's been there ever since.

That joint was mixed with "spice," some designer-drug filth cooked up in someone's toilet, and used to cut the real stuff to make the dealer a little more money. I don't know the whole story of where it came from or who sold it because she's unable to talk. She might not ever be able to talk, who knows? And all because her culture, her millenial-age post-college culture, taught her that it's ok to "get high." She made the mistake of listening to that and could pay for it with her life.

It's not the penny-ante dealers we have to eradicate, it's not the distributors, or even the big time trafficers that have to be exterminated. It's the whole filthy "let's get high" culture that has to go, the whole idea that drugs are an acceptable outlet for social interaction, that drugs are benign, and that one little toke never hurt anybody. If I could slaughter every supporter of that culture, every last manifestation of that culture right now, with my bare hands, know that I would.

And don't any one of you dare to say "oh, but it was all her fault." Don't. You. Dare.

 

[Widebrim]

^^My heart goes out for her, Lizzie, and for you. As you imply, that "one little toke" does bring with it dire consequences, despite the fools who preach to the contrary. Yes, the whole "drug culture" that we inherited from the hippies (and I am fed up with hearing all the "nostalgia" peddled about them--I was around at then, and remember much of the degradation of the times) has got to go. It has helped to destroy too many souls.

 

[Atticus Finch]

I am very sorry that both you and she are going through this. You are correct. It is tragic. I hope there are no lasting effects from whatever chemical(s) she ingested, but there could be...and I know that's what you most fear. Spice isn’t just one substance. It is a generic term used to describe many chemical recipes and they vary greatly depending on the maker. This is actually why spice has been so difficult to outlaw. Typically, it can’t even be chemically defined.

AF