The general decline in standards today

[LizzieMaine]

I've always found the idea of recreational drugs to be an alien concept. As a youngster I've gotten drunk maybe once or twice in my life and simply can't see what people find so enjoyable about it. Though I don't agree with it, I do realize that there are people out there with emotional or psychological issues for whom alcohol or drug use is their only coping mechanism, but what perplexes me are the ordinary yahoos who don't seem to have any major issues whose idea of a good time is getting drunk or stoned.

That's exactly it. I've never been drunk -- what have I been missing? I already know what it feels like to throw up uncontrollably, to experience blinding headache pain, and to pass out unconscious on the floor. Migraines will do that to you. For what do I need booze or drugs?

I think drug dealers, and the institutions that enable them, are leeches on the backside of society, but the only way to get rid of them for real is to educate people to the point where they have sense enough not to use their products. Kill the demand, and the market will die with it. It's fashionable to laugh at people who say "just say no," but do you have a better answer to those who try to push this filth on people?

 

[LizzieMaine]

This has been done times and times again since the days of Dave Elman - and that was in the 40s and 50s. Unfortunately Elman's methods are not that well known due to the fact that he wasn't a medical professional (Even though to this day nobody has instructed more doctors and psychotherapists in hypnosis than Elman did in his time. But after his death the medical community quickly banished the notion that they could learn something valuable from lay people. They stopped learning from lay hypnotists and started teaching their own ineffective stuff, basically setting back hypnotherapy for half a century.) Luckily, a few people have upheld Elman's torch. Due to this development the medical establishment, even if they had some hypnosis background, is quite unaware of the incredible potential true hypnosis has in store for medical use.

Dave Elman was better known in the Era as the creator and moderator of the long-running "Hobby Lobby" radio program, an interview series specializing in unusual hobbyists. His own hobby was hypnosis, and he indeed became one of the leading authorities on that topic, entirely thru self education.

 

[Rudie]

Yes, but he was actually an authority on hypnosis way before he started his radio career. He got into hypnosis as a little kid.

 

[jamespowers]

Drug abuse is already in the mix, lol. You're late to the party.

You want to make it worse then?

 

[jamespowers]

There will always be "burnouts". Someone of that type, if drugs be their poison of choice, will use whether or not it is legal. It could be argued that they would be less of a drag on society if we weren't paying to provide so many of them with a cot and three meals a day in the penal system. Conversely, we shouldn't support them outside of the penal system with welfare checks either.



I would not be surprised if similar sentiments were expressed during Prohibition. It may not reduce violent behavior, but it will absolutely reduce crime. Currently all users of illegal drugs are criminals, though not all of those users are violent. If those same drugs were legalized, ceteris paribus, the number of "criminals" would drop drastically overnight, while the rate of violence would remain the same.

Thank you for posting those excerpts. They were very interesting.

Great. So we legalize it and let them kill themselves. Great idea. We should also legalize murder because people will do it whether it is legal or not. Heck we can legalize everything because it is going to happen whether it is legal or not. We can reduce the crime rate by 100%.

We have MADD and numerous groups that will be glad to tell you how many people die of driving drunk etc. You want to add drugs to it as well. Think about it. You can drink responsibly and not even get drunk. What do you use drugs for? To get the equivalent of drunk fast.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

You want to make it worse then?

Worse? Have you SEEN the havoc that drugs have wreaked in DC, Baltimore, Detroit, St. Louis and any other major inner city since the 1980s? Families have disintegrated to the point of there being a plethora of single mothers raising children and the men locked away for long prison sentences on drug charges. Skyrocketing crime rates year after year, abandoned buildings, no sense of community because the moral fabric of the society has been destroyed because once upstanding men and women are now junkies or pushers. We've been hit rock bottom.

I remember as a kid in the 80s, when drugs were first put into the communities, seeing naked men run down the street high on drugs because they thought that the devil was after them. I saw mothers who lost their kids to the system because they were out turning tricks to get that next high. I saw kids, who now had no stable family, turn to gangs for a feeling of family and of course we all know gangs equal criminality. Now people who lived in suburban enclaves didn't have to deal with all of this but in inner city communities where the drugs were dumped in we have been REELING over the effects of this for the last 30 years.

 

[jamespowers]

James, respectfully, I know that you are only offering quotes from things that you have read, but much of this is fraught with error. For example, "The DEA reports that six times as many homicides are committed by persons under the influence of drugs than those looking for money to buy drugs and that most arrestees for violent crimes test positive for drugs at time of arrest." I have no idea how the DEA or anyone else could arrive at this figure since criminals are not drug tested upon arrest. Further, even if we could somehow know that violent criminals were drug positive at the time of arrest, would that surprise us given they are usually drug addicts who are robbing and burglarizing and stealing to fund an addiction?

I expect that over the last twenty years have been exposed to most of the same raw data as the experts you quote…probably much more than Ed Koch…and I have come to a much different conclusion. Most crime is drug related. When I say that, I mean the motivation for most criminal conduct can normally be traced to the maintenance of a drug addiction, the defense of a drug distribution territory, the collection of a drug debt or the defense of a drug rip off...or some other reason that has something to do with an illegal drug. Yes, there are other kinds of violent crime. Strained sexual relationships and domestic financial hardship run drugs a close second as criminal motivators…but trust me…drugs are the prime cause of most crime today. And we are losing that battle, bigtime.

AF

So that would explain drug addicted nuts who actually have money but still steal and act in violent ways? If you have other data to support your position then please bring further DEA figures forward to refute it.
Yes and? So legalizing dope would do what to fix any of the causes of the things you listed? Dope will still cost money and the addicts will still need money to buy it. The only difference is that it is legal. Great......

 

[jamespowers]

Worse? Have you SEEN the havoc that drugs have wreaked in DC, Baltimore, Detroit, St. Louis and any other major inner city since the 1980s? Families have disintegrated to the point of there being a plethora of single mothers raising children and the men locked away for long prison sentences on drug charges. Skyrocketing crime rates year after year, abandoned buildings, no sense of community because the moral fabric of the society has been destroyed because once upstanding men and women are now junkies or pushers. We've been hit rock bottom.

I remember as a kid in the 80s, when drugs were first put into the communities, seeing naked men run down the street high on drugs because they thought that the devil was after them. I saw mothers who lost their kids to the system because they were out turning tricks to get that next high. I saw kids, who now had no stable family, turn to gangs for a feeling of family and of course we all know gangs equal criminality. Now people who lived in suburban enclaves didn't have to deal with all of this but in inner city communities where the drugs were dumped in we have been REELING over the effects of this for the last 30 years.

And? How would legalizing dope fix this? They would still need money to buy dope. It ain't gonna be free. They aren't going to work as dope addicted worthless workers and no one will hire them. How does that change their situation or improve their neighborhoods? All you have done is legalize their habit and make mobsters into legal dope pushers. You benefit the same people it benefits now.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Great. So we legalize it and let them kill themselves. Great idea. We should also legalize murder because people will do it whether it is legal or not. Heck we can legalize everything because it is going to happen whether it is legal or not. We can reduce the crime rate by 100%.

We have MADD and numerous groups that will be glad to tell you how many people die of driving drunk etc. You want to add drugs to it as well. Think about it. You can drink responsibly and not even get drunk. What do you use drugs for? To get the equivalent of drunk fast.

My first preference would be to stop it from coming in the country in the first place. The most powerful nation on Earth somehow can't seem to do that, so, they've wasted billions of taxpayer monies on fighting a war that has no end in sight.

 

[LizzieMaine]

My first preference would be to stop it from coming in the country in the first place. The most powerful nation on Earth somehow can't seem to do that, so, they've wasted billions of taxpayer monies on fighting a war that has no end in sight.

Indeed. If you have a busted pipe in your cellar you don't run around trying to patch all the individual leaks. You shut off the main valve.

 

[Atticus Finch]

If you have other data to support your position then please bring further DEA figures forward to refute it.

Heh heh. We haven't seen "your" DEA figures, yet. Only an out of context quote from some internet article that states what the DEA "reports". Let's see the original DEA source material and let's see how the DEA complied its data and reached its conclusion.

AF

 

[jamespowers]

My first preference would be to stop it from coming in the country in the first place. The most powerful nation on Earth somehow can't seem to do that, so, they've wasted billions of taxpayer monies on fighting a war that has no end in sight.

I am on your side there. Call your Congressman. Write the President. Clearly if they work together and get the borders straightened out then it will prevent a fair amount of the dope from coming intot the country. I am all for a border fence like the Great Wall of China but somewhere along the line someone isn't building it.[huh]:eusa_doh:

 

[Rudie]

jamespowers, are you referring to cannabis and marijuana by dope?

 

[jamespowers]

Heh heh. We haven't seen "your" DEA figures, yet. Only an out of context quote from some internet article that states what the DEA "reports". Let's see the original DEA source material and let's see how the DEA complied its data and reached its conclusion.

AF

It is from here the U.S. Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration, “Fact 7,” Speaking Out against Drug Legalization, 2 Check it out and read it.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

I am on your side there. Call your Congressman. Write the President. Clearly if they work together and get the borders straightened out then it will prevent a fair amount of the dope from coming intot the country. I am all for a border fence like the Great Wall of China but somewhere along the line someone isn't building it.[huh]:eusa_doh:

You mean to tell me that they don't know that we have an open border? And since when can politicians of any party be trusted to do much of anything? They didn't do much of anything at the height of the drug wars during the 80s, 30 years ago, so what makes you think they're going to do something now? The US can go into other countries on the other side of the globe and assassinate the most wanted men but they somehow don't know how to protect their own border and prevent the flow of drugs? Surrrree....

 

[Atticus Finch]

It is from here the US. Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration, “Fact 7,” Speaking Out against Drug Legalization, 2 Check it out and read it.

Got it and read it. Thank you. The data is complied entirely from self-reporting by inmates. As I suspected, it doesn't come from physical testing at the time of arrest. In other words, at some point after he has been convicted and imprisoned, violent inmate Johnny is asked if money for drugs motivated his crime and only 10% of the Johnnys unterviewed answered "yes". Then Johnny is asked if he was high when he committed the crime and most Johnnys answered "yes". From that we are to conclude that money for drugs isn't a motivator of violent crime and that being high caused the crime.

AF

 

[jamespowers]

jamespowers, are you referring to cannabis and marijuana by dope?

It is all dope.

 

[jamespowers]

Got it and read it. Thank you. The data is complied entirely from self-reporting by inmates. As I suspected, it doesn't come from physical testing at the time of arrest. In other words, at some point after he has been convicted and imprisoned, violent inmate Johnny is asked if money for drugs motivated his crime and only 10% of the Johnnys unterviewed answered "yes". Then Johnny is asked if he was high when he committed the crime and most Johnnys answered "yes". From that we are to conclude that money for drugs isn't a motivator of violent crime and that being high caused the crime.

AF

So you don't believe them then?
So what do you have that says the contrary?

 

[jamespowers]

You mean to tell me that they don't know that we have an open border? And since when can politicians of any party be trusted to do much of anything? They didn't do much of anything at the height of the drug wars during the 80s, 30 years ago, so what makes you think they're going to do something now? The US can go into other countries on the other side of the globe and assassinate the most wanted men but they somehow don't know how to protect their own border and prevent the flow of drugs? Surrrree....

At some point, someone has to make sure that wall gets built and secured. Some politicians can be trusted while others are actually working against that. The trick is to sort out the ones who are against our best interest---and get rid of them.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

At some point, someone has to make sure that wall gets built and secured. Some politicians can be trusted while others are actually working against that. The trick is to sort out the ones who are against our best interest---and get rid of them.

Politicians don't run this country, big business does.