The general decline in standards today

[Feraud]

Edward, I am not sure if the culture changed in that way.
As a parent who has been around other parents over the years I never felt there was a culture of fear present. I've known plenty of parents who let their young children go off alone. These are the same parents who would comment how, "things aren't like when we grew up.."
I cannot say exactly where the change occurred but something screwy happened to a generation of parents. Let's keep it simple and blame the internet!

 

[scottyrocks]

The only way there will be a new valuing of 'the old' is if it is forced upon people, and even then, many will kick and scream themselves to death instead of acknowledging the lesser amounts of what is right on front of them.

I know children with the latest inet-enabled cell phone who flip it in the air like its a ball, and when it finally, inevitably hits the ground and shatters, it is immediately replaced. These children will nevrr, on their own, learn the enduring value of things. Their parents don't, and many of them grew up with a lot less than their children have. That is probably why they give their kids so much. The values are not as important as the thought that their kids will not grow up the way they did - with nothing, or next-to.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I firmly believe tv and video games are not the key when it comes to kids not playing outside anymore. Rightly or wrongly from the late Eighties on was created a culture so afraid of the paedophile bogeyman and whatever else that kids simply aren't given the freedom some of us had to play outside. Then the vidro games come in and exacerbate it, sure.

Oh, I totally agree. When I was six, a thug named Gus Heald killed a woman and her daughter the next town over from us, and for the next year or so, every time I went out the door my mother would yell after me WATCH OUT FOR GUS HEALD!

Note that she didn't grab me to keep me from going out the door, or chain me to a stake in the front yard like I was a wire-haired terrier or something or coop me up behind a fence or sign me up for Supervised Play Classes. She just turned me loose and told me to be careful. They finally caught old Gus, he died in prison, and I grew up without incident. I wish kids today had the same chance.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

One of my math teachers in middle school was named Mr. Heald. I'm rather ashamed to admit it but we used to call him Hildo the (MATRWH*). We were a brutal lot back then. Of course that was back in the '70s, the beginning of The Decline. :embarassed:

*Marital Aid that Rhymes with Hildo

 

[Widebrim]

Oh, I totally agree. When I was six, a thug named Gus Heald killed a woman and her daughter the next town over from us, and for the next year or so, every time I went out the door my mother would yell after me WATCH OUT FOR GUS HEALD!

Ha! That reminds me of one of the summers I spent at my Dad's relatives' farm back in PA. As I was leaving the house to go fishing or something, my Aunt Nanda yelled at me, "Lee-Lee (my country monicker...), take the .22 with you! There was a bear spotted in the woods!"

 

[William Stratford]

The only way there will be a new valuing of 'the old' is if it is forced upon people, and even then, many will kick and scream themselves to death instead of acknowledging the lesser amounts of what is right on front of them.

I know children with the latest inet-enabled cell phone who flip it in the air like its a ball, and when it finally, inevitably hits the ground and shatters, it is immediately replaced. These children will nevrr, on their own, learn the enduring value of things. Their parents don't, and many of them grew up with a lot less than their children have. That is probably why they give their kids so much. The values are not as important as the thought that their kids will not grow up the way they did - with nothing, or next-to.

Probably you are correct there, but we cannot just impose it on the next generation unless we make ourselves an example of it in practice - otherwise they will rightly call us hypocrits and ignore what we say.

 

[Feraud]

The only way there will be a new valuing of 'the old' is if it is forced upon people, and even then, many will kick and scream themselves to death instead of acknowledging the lesser amounts of what is right on front of them.

I'd appreciate if the current crop of authority figures (parents, politicians, teachers, etc.) would at least set the example instead of having to force morals on young people.
We are surrounded with authority figures who abuse their position. If I were young I'd question such principles and not want to follow their lead.

 

[scottyrocks]

And therein lies the problem: entropy. It is much easier for people to behave in ways that lead to social decline and degradation. Without a mass reversion to integrity, it just continues on its present course. I can't even imagine what sort of societal shake up will be necessary to affect such a change.

 

[William Stratford]

And therein lies the problem: entropy. It is much easier for people to behave in ways that lead to social decline and degradation. Without a mass reversion to integrity, it just continues on its present course. I can't even imagine what sort of societal shake up will be necessary to affect such a change.

Indeed. So long as people are conditioned to measure things by "what's in it for me?" then people will not turn away from consumerism (and all that goes with it in the widest sense). Instead, the "meh, whatever *buy a new one*" attitude will remain. Even, if the economy collapsed, and "buy a new one" no longer was an option, people would strive to rebuild such an environment so long as they retained the same basic values of being a user. [huh]

Personally, I think that deep down all but the psychopathic are drawn to decency...so long as they are not distracted by ideologies that worship appetite...but for that they need a landmark to navigate by, and in society today there is little sign of such.

 

[Widebrim]

And therein lies the problem: entropy. It is much easier for people to behave in ways that lead to social decline and degradation. Without a mass reversion to integrity, it just continues on its present course. I can't even imagine what sort of societal shake up will be necessary to affect such a change.

Perhaps another Great Depression...

 

[Edward]

Edward, I am not sure if the culture changed in that way.
As a parent who has been around other parents over the years I never felt there was a culture of fear present. I've known plenty of parents who let their young children go off alone. These are the same parents who would comment how, "things aren't like when we grew up.."
I cannot say exactly where the change occurred but something screwy happened to a generation of parents. Let's keep it simple and blame the internet!

I'm sure it varies with geography, though one thing that is constant the world over is the preference for blaming an easy, comfortable scapegoat rather than looking to true causes. This long predates the internet: popular media has been blamed for the corruption of the youth to society's degradation since time immemorial. Now, it's the internet, video games, whatever. In the eighties it was home video, in the fifties, horror comics. Socrates blamed the dramatic poets... Now, there's a fine vintage value.

The only way there will be a new valuing of 'the old' is if it is forced upon people, and even then, many will kick and scream themselves to death instead of acknowledging the lesser amounts of what is right on front of them.

I know children with the latest inet-enabled cell phone who flip it in the air like its a ball, and when it finally, inevitably hits the ground and shatters, it is immediately replaced. These children will nevrr, on their own, learn the enduring value of things. Their parents don't, and many of them grew up with a lot less than their children have. That is probably why they give their kids so much. The values are not as important as the thought that their kids will not grow up the way they did - with nothing, or next-to.

That exists in every generation, albeit that it does appear particularly pronounced in recent generations. The Chinese are grappling with the results of Little Emperor Syndrome today.

Oh, I totally agree. When I was six, a thug named Gus Heald killed a woman and her daughter the next town over from us, and for the next year or so, every time I went out the door my mother would yell after me WATCH OUT FOR GUS HEALD!

Note that she didn't grab me to keep me from going out the door, or chain me to a stake in the front yard like I was a wire-haired terrier or something or coop me up behind a fence or sign me up for Supervised Play Classes. She just turned me loose and told me to be careful. They finally caught old Gus, he died in prison, and I grew up without incident. I wish kids today had the same chance.

We had certain limitations put on us, for the obvious local reasons in the Six Counties. I do also remember a big paedophile panic during my last year at primary school. A friend was offered a lift to school by a stranger (thought to have been a family friend he didn't recognise). The local police response was to station a uniformed presence on that place in the middle of the village for a week. They genuinely seemed to think they were going to catch this person doing that... More likely scare ay actual predator off into the next town for someone else to deal with (which might have been their motive if I could have credited them with the gumption for it. Experience indicates otherwise). Certainly didn't do us any harm to be educated of the dangers (even if we had no idea what these Bad Men (and they were always men: advice if you got scared was to "ask a policeman or an adult lady for help") would do, other than that it was Very Bad and You Might Die), but I'm not sure it was always even remotely proportionate.

One of my math teachers in middle school was named Mr. Heald. I'm rather ashamed to admit it but we used to call him Hildo the (MATRWH*). We were a brutal lot back then. Of course that was back in the '70s, the beginning of The Decline. :embarassed:

*Marital Aid that Rhymes with Hildo

Bwahahahaha.... That's superb. Our new headmaster, who arrived halfway through my Grammar School career, was once referred to by a disgruntled Sixth Former as being "like Buddha, because he's fat, bald and likes to be worshipped". It stuck. I don't think he was ever referred to (outside of his own presence) as anything else again. Of course, it was most often used affectionately as he was normally a pretty popular guy, and he was well aware of it. He even alluded to it himself on occasion, though never quite outright said it...

I'd appreciate if the current crop of authority figures (parents, politicians, teachers, etc.) would at least set the example instead of having to force morals on young people.
We are surrounded with authority figures who abuse their position. If I were young I'd question such principles and not want to follow their lead.

Bingo. It's natural and healthy for kids to rebel to some degree: if nobody stepped out of line, society would never progress. Of all the guys when I was a teenager, the ones who were told they must wear a tie hated them, hated having the school tell them to cut their hair, the works. They left school and never wore a tie or cut their hair again. Well.... not until they hit their twenties and discovered what girls liked.... Seriously, though, how many people on here alone dress and carry themselves because it was drilled into them at home, and how many because they think it's cool? Bit of both, I'd wager - and probably more of the latter than many might be prepared to admit.

 

[William Stratford]

... popular media has been blamed for the corruption of the youth to society's degradation since time immemorial. Now, it's the internet, video games, whatever. In the eighties it was home video, in the fifties, horror comics. Socrates blamed the dramatic poets...

Perhaps they are all correct; identifying a consistent problem in a series of incarnations....

It's natural and healthy for kids to rebel to some degree

Says who?

I hear this a lot, that children should rebel against their parents, but it seems to come from post-50s 'liberal' pop-culture trying to sell new identity products to teenagers with disposable income and abandoned roots.[huh]

if nobody stepped out of line, society would never progress.

Nor would it decay.

Ever noticed how the thing that we are supposed to be progressing towards is always sold as being the best thing ever....until we get it, at which point it becomes "inferior" and the next new thing that we should progress towards is the replacement best thing ever.

Seriously, though, how many people on here alone dress and carry themselves because it was drilled into them at home, and how many because they think it's cool? Bit of both, I'd wager - and probably more of the latter than many might be prepared to admit.

Not everyone dresses smart because it is somehow the new "punk".

 

[Flicka]

We had certain limitations put on us, for the obvious local reasons in the Six Counties. I do also remember a big paedophile panic during my last year at primary school. A friend was offered a lift to school by a stranger (thought to have been a family friend he didn't recognise). The local police response was to station a uniformed presence on that place in the middle of the village for a week. They genuinely seemed to think they were going to catch this person doing that... More likely scare ay actual predator off into the next town for someone else to deal with (which might have been their motive if I could have credited them with the gumption for it. Experience indicates otherwise). Certainly didn't do us any harm to be educated of the dangers (even if we had no idea what these Bad Men (and they were always men: advice if you got scared was to "ask a policeman or an adult lady for help") would do, other than that it was Very Bad and You Might Die), but I'm not sure it was always even remotely proportionate.

This was exactly it. I met a few Bad Men who showed me their privates (my sister famously ran into one at the library, between G-H), and one who grabbed my bicycle and tried to steer me away (I told him to BACK OFF or I would kick him) and while the police were occasionally told (when we bothered to tell our parents), I never really got what they might do, beyond Bad Things And Maybe Kill You. Which never happened, luckily.

The upside was that I grew up to be pretty capable and streetwise, which has served me well as an adult.

As for authorities... My mother would have a fit if she thought I did things because I was told and not because I chose to. She taught me I should dress properly (I actually didn't own trousers as a child) out of respect for others, but she would be really disappointed if I accepted what authority figures told me to do if I didn't agree with the rationale. She's deeply religious so to her earthly authority is pish compared to your God-given conscience.

Needless to say, I was a very well-behaved Besserwisser who got beat up on more than one occasion for defending others to bullies. I suppose I still am.

 

[AmateisGal]

Interesting article in the New Yorker about why American kids are so spoiled.

"With the exception of the imperial offspring of the Ming dynasty and the dauphins of pre-Revolutionary France, contemporary American kids may represent the most indulged young people in the history of the world. It’s not just that they’ve been given unprecedented amounts of stuff—clothes, toys, cameras, skis, computers, televisions, cell phones, PlayStations, iPods. (The market for Burberry Baby and other forms of kiddie “couture” has reportedly been growing by ten per cent a year.) They’ve also been granted unprecedented authority. “Parents want their kids’ approval, a reversal of the past ideal of children striving for their parents’ approval,” Jean Twenge and W. Keith Campbell, both professors of psychology, have written. In many middle-class families, children have one, two, sometimes three adults at their beck and call. This is a social experiment on a grand scale, and a growing number of adults fear that it isn’t working out so well: according to one poll, commissioned by Time and CNN, two-thirds of American parents think that their children are spoiled."

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2012/07/02/120702crbo_books_kolbert?currentPage=all

 

[William Stratford]

Interesting article in the New Yorker about why American kids are so spoiled.

"With the exception of the imperial offspring of the Ming dynasty and the dauphins of pre-Revolutionary France, contemporary American kids may represent the most indulged young people in the history of the world. It’s not just that they’ve been given unprecedented amounts of stuff—clothes, toys, cameras, skis, computers, televisions, cell phones, PlayStations, iPods. (The market for Burberry Baby and other forms of kiddie “couture” has reportedly been growing by ten per cent a year.) They’ve also been granted unprecedented authority. “Parents want their kids’ approval, a reversal of the past ideal of children striving for their parents’ approval,” Jean Twenge and W. Keith Campbell, both professors of psychology, have written. In many middle-class families, children have one, two, sometimes three adults at their beck and call. This is a social experiment on a grand scale, and a growing number of adults fear that it isn’t working out so well: according to one poll, commissioned by Time and CNN, two-thirds of American parents think that their children are spoiled."

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2012/07/02/120702crbo_books_kolbert?currentPage=all

Good quote. Sometimes I get close to despair at the way that parents have become the subordinate and children the superior in families.

 

[Olde English]

Interesting article in the New Yorker about why American kids are so spoiled.

"With the exception of the imperial offspring of the Ming dynasty and the dauphins of pre-Revolutionary France, contemporary American kids may represent the most indulged young people in the history of the world. It’s not just that they’ve been given unprecedented amounts of stuff—clothes, toys, cameras, skis, computers, televisions, cell phones, PlayStations, iPods. (The market for Burberry Baby and other forms of kiddie “couture” has reportedly been growing by ten per cent a year.) They’ve also been granted unprecedented authority. “Parents want their kids’ approval, a reversal of the past ideal of children striving for their parents’ approval,” Jean Twenge and W. Keith Campbell, both professors of psychology, have written. In many middle-class families, children have one, two, sometimes three adults at their beck and call. This is a social experiment on a grand scale, and a growing number of adults fear that it isn’t working out so well: according to one poll, commissioned by Time and CNN, two-thirds of American parents think that their children are spoiled."

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2012/07/02/120702crbo_books_kolbert?currentPage=all

It does seem that in the more affluent parts of the world (and in spite of the recession we are mostly somewhat better placed than our ancestors were during the Great Depression) we may be reaping the results of passing on to our children our own generation's preoccupation and obsession with 'stuff', rather than with the real treasure that come from decent community and family values.
When I was young, asking a child who his or her hero was would bring forth worthy replies such as Helen Keller, Neil Armstrong, Martin Luther King or Marie Curie. There might be the odd sportsman thrown in, based purely on their prowess and performance on track, court or field. Today, with the emphasis on fame without talent, wealth without work, and profits without conscience, the answers tend to be based on celebrity for its own sake, and hype and media manipulation.
Many children and young people have become the centre of their own universes, with parents manipulated by the media into being too fearful to let their children play out and explore their world and interact with other people (with all the usual caveats).
It's terribly sad, and I only hope that as more people reflect on the ideals that dominated life in the wonderfully inspiring eras we are interested in - family, community, service and sacrifice - we will be able to introduce a little sanity and decency back into the world!

 

[AmateisGal]

It's terribly sad, and I only hope that as more people reflect on the ideals that dominated life in the wonderfully inspiring eras we are interested in - family, community, service and sacrifice - we will be able to introduce a little sanity and decency back into the world!

I hope so. Though I had to laugh when I read the part in the article where, after her son didn't latch the lid on the trash can and a bear got into it, scattering trash everywhere, SHE was the one that picked up all the trash and not her son!

 

[HoosierDaddy]

My hero was always my Dad..and,in fact,still is...

 

[Edward]

Interesting article in the New Yorker about why American kids are so spoiled.

"With the exception of the imperial offspring of the Ming dynasty and the dauphins of pre-Revolutionary France, contemporary American kids may represent the most indulged young people in the history of the world. It’s not just that they’ve been given unprecedented amounts of stuff—clothes, toys, cameras, skis, computers, televisions, cell phones, PlayStations, iPods. (The market for Burberry Baby and other forms of kiddie “couture” has reportedly been growing by ten per cent a year.) They’ve also been granted unprecedented authority. “Parents want their kids’ approval, a reversal of the past ideal of children striving for their parents’ approval,” Jean Twenge and W. Keith Campbell, both professors of psychology, have written. In many middle-class families, children have one, two, sometimes three adults at their beck and call. This is a social experiment on a grand scale, and a growing number of adults fear that it isn’t working out so well: according to one poll, commissioned by Time and CNN, two-thirds of American parents think that their children are spoiled."

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2012/07/02/120702crbo_books_kolbert?currentPage=all

Sounds like the Little Emperor Syndrome with which some Chinese parents are now grappling.

It does seem that in the more affluent parts of the world (and in spite of the recession we are mostly somewhat better placed than our ancestors were during the Great Depression) we may be reaping the results of passing on to our children our own generation's preoccupation and obsession with 'stuff', rather than with the real treasure that come from decent community and family values.
When I was young, asking a child who his or her hero was would bring forth worthy replies such as Helen Keller, Neil Armstrong, Martin Luther King or Marie Curie. There might be the odd sportsman thrown in, based purely on their prowess and performance on track, court or field. Today, with the emphasis on fame without talent, wealth without work, and profits without conscience, the answers tend to be based on celebrity for its own sake, and hype and media manipulation.
Many children and young people have become the centre of their own universes, with parents manipulated by the media into being too fearful to let their children play out and explore their world and interact with other people (with all the usual caveats).
It's terribly sad, and I only hope that as more people reflect on the ideals that dominated life in the wonderfully inspiring eras we are interested in - family, community, service and sacrifice - we will be able to introduce a little sanity and decency back into the world!

The Simon Cowell effect.... There does seem in recent decades to have been a shift towards kids aspiring to fame for its own sake, wanting to be whatever makes them famous rather than wanting to be famous for doing something in particular that they love. It's an odd one. Maybe it really is all that nonsense of everyone being told that are special or somehow significant to anyone other than the Divine. Oddly enough, embracing my own existential insignificance was one of the most liberating epiphanies I ever had but that's by the by.

She's deeply religious so to her earthly authority is pish compared to your God-given conscience.

lol I know where she's coming from. There are a lot of things I've never done over the years not because I give an airborne fornication, so to speak, for the views of others or The State, but for the simple reason that my own conscience would not permit it.

Perhaps they are all correct; identifying a consistent problem in a series of incarnations....

Coincidence and correlation are not the same thing. Typically such howlings are naught more than moral panics, although they serve the purpose of pinning the blame on a comfortable scapegoat that can be easily castigated without major inconvenience. The Thomson and Venables related hoo hah over screen violence was an absolute paradigm example of this sort of thing, but it has been repeated many, many times over throughout recorded history - as The Book says, "there is nothing new under the sun".

Says who?

I hear this a lot, that children should rebel against their parents, but it seems to come from post-50s 'liberal' pop-culture trying to sell new identity products to teenagers with disposable income and abandoned roots.[huh]



Nor would it decay.

On the other hand, we'd still have slavery, absolutist monarchies and a Sun that revolved around a flat Earth. I don't care to think about whether I'd have survived being trepanned.

Ever noticed how the thing that we are supposed to be progressing towards is always sold as being the best thing ever....until we get it, at which point it becomes "inferior" and the next new thing that we should progress towards is the replacement best thing ever.

Not everyone dresses smart because it is somehow the new "punk".

Nor did I imply so. Nonetheless, the nature of society is cyclical. My parents generation swung towards the casual, making it the prevailing norm by this point. The pendulum will swing back - that much is entirely normal. There will, however, always be a vanguard who reject prevailing norms (as do folks on this site). Many will do so for purely aesthetic reasons, not out of some idealised notion of the past being a better place, or it somehow being morally or ethically superior to dress in a certain way. And there is not a thing wrong with that.

 

[William Stratford]

Coincidence and correlation are not the same thing. Typically such howlings are naught more than moral panics, although they serve the purpose of pinning the blame on a comfortable scapegoat that can be easily castigated without major inconvenience. The Thomson and Venables related hoo hah over screen violence was an absolute paradigm example of this sort of thing, but it has been repeated many, many times over throughout recorded history - as The Book says, "there is nothing new under the sun".

Popular media eases the flow of information, and an eased flow of information is key to the breaking down of a society as it is flooded with a mass influx of new ideas. Social coherence and cohesion is dependent in no small part on this not happening.

On the other hand, we'd still have slavery, absolutist monarchies and a Sun that revolved around a flat Earth. I don't care to think about whether I'd have survived being trepanned.

We still do have slavery (we just farm it out to SE Asia), the absolutist monarchies were replaced by multinationals deemed "too big to fail", and most of us see the sun as moving ("sunrise", "sunset") rather than the earth and it makes not a smidgeon of difference. As for trepanning, we replaced it with a generation on Ritalin and Prozac....all the while losing the good things as baby left the building along with the bathwater.

Nor did I imply so. Nonetheless, the nature of society is cyclical. My parents generation swung towards the casual, making it the prevailing norm by this point. The pendulum will swing back - that much is entirely normal. There will, however, always be a vanguard who reject prevailing norms (as do folks on this site). Many will do so for purely aesthetic reasons, not out of some idealised notion of the past being a better place, or it somehow being morally or ethically superior to dress in a certain way. And there is not a thing wrong with that.

The pendulum is a nonsense created by consumerism for those with disposable income and a jaded soul that demands entertainment, and fools will continue to throw their money at whichever fad-of-the-moment they lap up.