The Decline of the Well Put Together Lady

[CanadaDoll]

Oh thank heaven

I though I was the only one seeing all this! I was walking to class a while ago, and saw one young lady walking to the Professors offices in shorts so short the only thing that hit me was that my most revealing knickers covered more!That and a tank top with spaghetti straps!

It is small wonder I can't find a decent man around when their used to seeing women like that! They really don't feel the need to treat us respectfully and the only thing I can chalk it up to is the image women are presenting. Or lack there of.

Oh whatever happened to class.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It is small wonder I can't find a decent man around when their used to seeing women like that! They really don't feel the need to treat us respectfully and the only thing I can chalk it up to is the image women are presenting. Or lack there of.

This ties in to the overall thesis presented in a book I like very much called "A Return To Modesty," written a few years back by a college-age woman by the name of Wendy Shalit. She describes picking up the same sort of feeling from the guys she was encountering -- and reached the conclusion that the best way to get respect from them as a human being and not just as a sex object was to not serve up her sexuality on a plate in the way she dressed.

I think her approach is a very valid one -- the idea of personal modesty, not as some sort of imposed religious or patriarchal obligation, but as a deliberate choice one can make in order to influence the way one is perceived by others.

In an ideal world nobody would be judged by appearances -- but we don't live in an ideal world, and probably never will...

 

[olive bleu]

This is something that i have been complaining to my husband about for years.I first started noticing it when we attended public events that i consider to be "dressed up" affairs(like the symphony, or an opera) I remember going to a concert a few years ago.. my husband and I went out for the evening. We enjoyed a nice dinner and then went to an amateur operatic production.My husband wore a suit and i wore a vintage black velvet cocktail dress + pearls. I remember being worried about whether my outfit was dressy enough, but instead of feeling awkward because i was underdressed, I was actually way overdressed!! There were people there in sweatpants! I have loved wearing skirts & dresses my entire life and always have to deal with people that ask me what i am so dressed up for.
I work in an envoirnment where the dress code is business casual, but this can be interpreted in many ways. We can also "earn" casual days as a reward for productivity and sales, and this is usually interpreted to mean one can show up at work in their pajamas.i went through a period a couple months ago where i was allowed to wear casual and started wearing jeans & t-shirts to work. I felt slovenly and honestly noticed a marked change in the attitude toward me by my supervisors.They rarely stopped & chatted with me and i was overlooked when there were extra projects to be taken on.for the past 3 weeks i have gone back to dressing up and i really feel that my own outlook toward my work has changed. i feel more confident, my superiors are stopping by my desk to say hello, and today my manager asked me to take on the responsibility of training a new employee next week as he will be away.We may say that we wish appearance did not carry as much weight as it does,but it is what it is, and if this is the yardstick by which we are measured, well, i say, we deserve to get the best that life has for us.

 

[Glaistig]

Very interesting discussion in this thread!!

I've practiced federal Indian law for six years and my office is super casual. But I love to wear heels, stockings, etc. everyday regardless. That's just my own personal choice and my form of expression and it puts me in the professional mindset I want.

But court? I don't appear in court much but, gosh, I simply can't fathom an attorney appearing before a judge representing anyone without first looking absolutely shipshape. It's really not that hard when you think about it. I mean, we're not talking about going to a White House white tie gala. Just wear some clean tasteful "attorney" clothing and employ good personal hygiene/grooming, as a poster above remarked.

One time I showed up for a mandatory pre-trial mediation meeting with opposing counsel in downtown Denver. Now, the meeting didn't take place in a courtroom and it is understood to be semi-casual in terms of dress. My client wore a very nice but not overly stuffy suit and tie. I wore a fairly conservative but non-dowdy "attorney" dressy outfit. Opposing counsel appeared in a rumpled short sleeved polo-type shirt with casual pants and hideous shoes. His hair looked uncombed. I seriously thought that one of Denver's truly unfortunate homeless population had wandered into our meeting room because opposing counsel was dressed that poorly. He -- who stank of cig smoke -- took one look at everyone in the room, including the mediator, and said something like, "Oh, everyone dressed up."

 

[Paisley]

Hi, Glaistig, nice to see another Coloradan here.

I wonder if opposing counsel was the same attorney we use sometimes. I won't name any names, but I've seen him with messy hair and clothes that look like they were dug out of the hamper. I also noticed a big ol' wart on his arm, too. If he were a poor person, I wouldn't fault him for that, but it you're an attorney, can't you afford to get that taken care of? [huh]

 

[Paisley]

This ties in to the overall thesis presented in a book I like very much called "A Return To Modesty," written a few years back by a college-age woman by the name of Wendy Shalit. She describes picking up the same sort of feeling from the guys she was encountering -- and reached the conclusion that the best way to get respect from them as a human being and not just as a sex object was to not serve up her sexuality on a plate in the way she dressed.

I think her approach is a very valid one -- the idea of personal modesty, not as some sort of imposed religious or patriarchal obligation, but as a deliberate choice one can make in order to influence the way one is perceived by others.

fftopic: Wendy Shalit has a website and a blog with about 20 writers, all women. I think Wendy is terrific, and I agree with a lot of what she says, but I stopped reading the blog because they relentlessly pushed marriage and pooh-poohed the idea that a woman can be happily single.

 

[Glaistig]

Hi, Glaistig, nice to see another Coloradan here.

I wonder if opposing counsel was the same attorney we use sometimes. I won't name any names, but I've seen him with messy hair and clothes that look like they were dug out of the hamper. I also noticed a big ol' wart on his arm, too. If he were a poor person, I wouldn't fault him for that, but it you're an attorney, can't you afford to get that taken care of? [huh]

*waves to fellow Coloradan*

Ha ha, I don't know if this guy has a wart on his arm! lol But he does have a rather warty personality in my opinion! If his last name starts with a "W," we're talking about the same dude. If not, well I guess there are more poorly dressed attorneys in the CO area then I could have imagined! Send me a PM if it's a "W."

But there are a gadzillion attys out there, even just in Colorado, so the likelihood .... (I had one trial with him. He did look "decent" for the trial if you exclude the horrible cigarette stench. . . .)

 

[Weston]

Not sure if it's OK that I poke my head in here, but here goes...

As a younger man, I always noticed two types of women: the type in ads wearing trendy, tight clothing with stunning physiques and...

the emulators who wore the same clothing, yet distinctively not possessing the necessary physique to make said clothing attractive much less decent.

It's unfortunate that we have so many young ladies dressing like streetwalkers, but looking like unkempt couch potato streetwalkers is so much worse!

 

[Paisley]

*waves to fellow Coloradan*

Ha ha, I don't know if this guy has a wart on his arm! lol But he does have a rather warty personality in my opinion! If his last name starts with a "W," we're talking about the same dude. If not, well I guess there are more poorly dressed attorneys in the CO area then I could have imagined! Send me a PM if it's a "W."

But there are a gadzillion attys out there, even just in Colorado, so the likelihood .... (I had one trial with him. He did look "decent" for the trial if you exclude the horrible cigarette stench. . . .)

No, his name doesn't start with W. But it reminds me of the movie "Liar, Liar" where Jim Carey, after his misadventures that left him and his $1100 suit ragged and disheveled, was lying on the court steps and someone walking along put a dollar in his hand as if he were homeless.

I'm proud that the CPAs where I work look very professional, especially when they go to court.

 

[fleur]

Im coming late into this one!

Im a secretary in a law firm and 4 days out of 5 I will wear a pencil skirt, nice top or my fave pin striped wide legged trousers on "casual Friday".

I always do my hair and make up - to be honest I make half the lawyers look shabby!

Its funny how people instantly assume that you are going for an interview.

Another thing that got me slightly was as a treat for my daughter when the schools were on holiday last week, my husband and I decided that we would take her into London as a treat and take her to see Wicked (which was fantastic by the way!). I have to say my daughter who is 10 was better dressed than most adults (discounting mum of course lol). To top it off my hubby who was wearing black trousers, black brogues and a black pinstriped shirt got asked if he worked at the theatre by someone wearing a Lonsdale tracksuit! I ask you - dont people get dressed up to go to the theatre anymore

 

[olive bleu]

Im coming late into this one!

Im a secretary in a law firm and 4 days out of 5 I will wear a pencil skirt, nice top or my fave pin striped wide legged trousers on "casual Friday".

I always do my hair and make up - to be honest I make half the lawyers look shabby!

Its funny how people instantly assume that you are going for an interview.

Another thing that got me slightly was as a treat for my daughter when the schools were on holiday last week, my husband and I decided that we would take her into London as a treat and take her to see Wicked (which was fantastic by the way!). I have to say my daughter who is 10 was better dressed than most adults (discounting mum of course lol). To top it off my hubby who was wearing black trousers, black brogues and a black pinstriped shirt got asked if he worked at the theatre by someone wearing a Lonsdale tracksuit! I ask you - dont people get dressed up to go to the theatre anymore

NOPE...

 

[rubyredlocks]

I have to say no to people dressing to go to the theatre as well.I've also noticed it for social functions,such as weddings and X-mas or New Year parties that seemed that they should have called for cocktail attire.

However,I still see plenty of well-dressed women and men among my clientale,so all is not lost.
One of my gentleman is a lawyer and I adore his saturday relaxed style when he comes in for his bi-weekly trim.This last trim he was attired in crisp khaki pleated pants,a blue and white striped button down,brown belt,brown and tan cap-toe shoes,a vintage leather bomber jacket and fedora.Classic!

 

[Polka Dot]

I refrained from commenting on this thread because though I like many vintage things, I'm just not disciplined about dressing well on a daily basis. (And I wonder why I don't have a boyfriend...) Frequently, I'm a jeans and t-shirt kind of gal. However, my jeans are never torn and my shirt is always neat. I feel like if I suddenly made a switch to always wearing skirts, dresses, and make-up, people might think I had a screw loose.

I do, though, appreciate dressing up when the occasion merits. Earlier this week I was excited to go see La Boh?®me at the Philadelphia Academy of Music. I had never been to an opera in the US before. I knew that I had relatively poor seats in the upper balcony, but I thought I might stick out if I was too casual. So, I wore a mid-calf black skirt, stockings, heels, and a nice top. I didn't think I looked overly dressy, but I was in for a huge surprise when I got to the opera. There were some people who looked very elegant in their formal wear, but the number of people wearing blue jeans astounded me. And not just in the cheaper seats! I know blue jeans have become incredibly ubiquitous, but there are some places I don't think they're appropriate, namely weddings, funerals, operas, fancy restaurants, courtrooms and church. I wish all people (women as well as men) would dress more nicely!

It's amazing to me that in one generation standards of dress could have declined so much. My mom tells me that at her public high school in the 60s, girls weren't even allowed to wear pants. Now, if a girl wears a skirt she is constantly asked, "Why are you so dressed up?" [huh]

 

[Elaina]

Yesterday I went to an interview (because I'm bored at home all the time, and I like to sew, have other expensive hobbies and start college in May and need a second car. Means I need a job). I wore, for me casual: gold tailored slacks, a shirt I adore (cowl necked tunic in a rather garish print, but the style makes the top look uber expensive, as this is not a tacky shirt even if the print alone IS tacky), gold heels, hair pinned up, makeup, citrine earrings and a gold cross necklace I always wear. Nothing vintage, nothing fancy, extremely business casual. It's for 7-11 after all.

I get there, and the three counter girls are all I see. One is an older woman who has a neatly done ponytail, you can tell it was curled, the other has a ponytail that's moussed to death and made into a thin ringlet, and the other has long stringy hair needing to be washed and clipped up on the side like a side ponytail. Not a dot of makeup on any of the women (one was younger, about 27, the other 2 were over 40) shoes were old and rattily worn out sneakers, clothes that needed to be washed, much less ironed. I even looked better then the manager, although she was wearing clean clothing.

Talk about odd. Then I went to the son's school (I didn't change. My son asked me "Mommy what's wrong!" "What?" "You're in PANTS, is everything OK?") and one of the girls in his class (second grade: they're 7 years old) was wearing hip huggers with hiney cleavage, a white blouse that showed more cleavage then my shirt did (and I've got boobs, and my shirt wasn't THAT low cut to begin with), a belly chain, high heeled sandals, and her hair was dyed. She looked liked a mimi J-Lo. Her mother I can't explain since the term used for her wouldn't be polite in public. The teacher was in pedal pushers, flip flops, and a t-shirt, which to me isn't school teacher clothing.

I't sjust dissapointing. I don't think I saw a woman dressed in anything not trashy or needing to be washed all day. I did see men dressed appropriately.

 

[CanadaDoll]

I refrained from commenting on this thread because though I like many vintage things, I'm just not disciplined about dressing well on a daily basis. (And I wonder why I don't have a boyfriend...) Frequently, I'm a jeans and t-shirt kind of gal. However, my jeans are never torn and my shirt is always neat. I feel like if I suddenly made a switch to always wearing skirts, dresses, and make-up, people might think I had a screw loose.

I do, though, appreciate dressing up when the occasion merits. Earlier this week I was excited to go see La Boh?®me at the Philadelphia Academy of Music. I had never been to an opera in the US before. I knew that I had relatively poor seats in the upper balcony, but I thought I might stick out if I was too casual. So, I wore a mid-calf black skirt, stockings, heels, and a nice top. I didn't think I looked overly dressy, but I was in for a huge surprise when I got to the opera. There were some people who looked very elegant in their formal wear, but the number of people wearing blue jeans astounded me. And not just in the cheaper seats! I know blue jeans have become incredibly ubiquitous, but there are some places I don't think they're appropriate, namely weddings, funerals, operas, fancy restaurants, courtrooms and church. I wish all people (women as well as men) would dress more nicely!

It's amazing to me that in one generation standards of dress could have declined so much. My mom tells me that at her public high school in the 60s, girls weren't even allowed to wear pants. Now, if a girl wears a skirt she is constantly asked, "Why are you so dressed up?" [huh]

I know where you're coming from on that, being a college student I try to dress well, but my forty (I kid you not ) pound back pack is not the gentelest thing on my pretty blouses and dresses:rage: ( the things I do for my educationlol ). I usually will wear really dark clean jeans or pants and a nice sweater or shirt. I will ALWAYS dress up for practicum though, that's one place I will never be caught dead in anything less than business "casual" ironed slacks or a skirt and a blouse or sweater. I always wear heels too, I'm tiny so I like to be at chest level with everyone elselol .

I tend to be pretty bull headed on the subject because I've seen the difference in treatment I get out at a bar with my friends dressed up like a "high class hussy" is there such a thing? to when I'm more covered up and lady like, and frankly I've stopped going to bars, unless it's a jazz lounge, I don't like men trying to push me into very dark corners.

When I go to listen to jazz I'm dressed differently, and I actually get treated like a real person, with intelligent things to say. While at times it can be a hassle to dress and look a little better it's definitely worth it in the long run, for how people see you, and how you see yourself.

 

[Rosie]

Im coming late into this one!

Im a secretary in a law firm and 4 days out of 5 I will wear a pencil skirt, nice top or my fave pin striped wide legged trousers on "casual Friday".

I always do my hair and make up - to be honest I make half the lawyers look shabby!

Its funny how people instantly assume that you are going for an interview.

Another thing that got me slightly was as a treat for my daughter when the schools were on holiday last week, my husband and I decided that we would take her into London as a treat and take her to see Wicked (which was fantastic by the way!). I have to say my daughter who is 10 was better dressed than most adults (discounting mum of course lol). To top it off my hubby who was wearing black trousers, black brogues and a black pinstriped shirt got asked if he worked at the theatre by someone wearing a Lonsdale tracksuit! I ask you - dont people get dressed up to go to the theatre anymore

Like Olive Bleu said, "nope".

Every year I attend the opening night gala of the Alvin Ailey Dance company. I've been going since I was a kid with my parents. When I was younger, ladies always wore their evening best, cocktail dresses or gowns with furs, beautiful and the gents always wore a tux or a very nice evening suit. Since I've been an adult I notice that the only people who dress apporpriately any longer are the patrons, "regular" people who attend have been looking more and more shabby as years go by. Last year, my cousin and I saw many people dressed in jeans! On opening night! As we plan our attire for this year, we were speculating about how many more dressed down people we would see.

 

[Madison Paige]

Oh my gosh! And my boyfriend and I thought we were the only ones having to deal with this issue! I live in Santa Barbara, CA, which is actually a VERY wealthy town (however, I'm not exactly included in that part of the population...) but it is also somewhat of a beach town, so all we ever see is flip flops, jeans, shorts, UGG BOOTS (jean skirts and ugg boots are VERY big here), even when going out to a nice dinner. You would think, with the people here that have so much extra cash, they'd buy decent looking clothing, rather then juicy sweat pants, and t-shirts, sheesh!

To be honest, we actually are always suprised if someone is well dressed. See here, at our Nordstroms in town, the girls are required to wear some sort of stockings or hoes from October to Febuary, and its always shocking and very exciting to actually see another girl in stockings!! And I've known some of these girls that work at Nordstoms, and they complain, and a few even considered quitting just because they had to cover their bare legs!

I honestly cannot wait until prom season ends every year so whenever we go out we don't get asked "are YOU going to PROM?!?", its horrible!!! But through out the year, we actually get DIRTY looks from people, just for being dressed nicely! I'm always stunned when I see that (which is on a daily basis).

I actually don't have much to contribute to the conversation, I just want you girls to know that you're not alone, and thank you to Honey Doll for starting this thread, so finally I know I'm not the only one effected and bothered by this!!

-Madison

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

fftopic: Wendy Shalit has a website and a blog with about 20 writers, all women. I think Wendy is terrific, and I agree with a lot of what she says, but I stopped reading the blog because they relentlessly pushed marriage and pooh-poohed the idea that a woman can be happily single.

fftopic: To be honest, I hated A Return To Modesty. Shalit gets let off the hook a little because it was written when she was in college, but after she blames things like rape and teenage rebellion on a lack of modesty and insists men would respect women if they would be more modest, she tells us a story about a girl getting harassing notes from some guy as soon as she starts dressing modestly.

She demonizes men, but they're the goal of dressing modestly, according to her. She thinks women surveyed by "Cosmo" are worthwhile as a control group of women. And that hook-ups chapter made me ill.

The book really got to me, because I wanted to agree with her when I started reading it.

Ok rant over!fftopic:

 

[Paisley]

we actually get DIRTY looks from people, just for being dressed nicely! I'm always stunned when I see that (which is on a daily basis).
-Madison

As if it's your fault they left the house looking like they just rolled out of bed. They're either jealous, or they resent you for making them look bad. Either way, it's their problem, not yours.

 

[TimeWarpWife]

I know this is an old thread, but I just found it, and sloppy looking people in public is a pet peeve of mine. Just a couple of weeks ago, I was out shopping and I saw one young man wearing his pajama bottoms and a young lady wearing bedroom slippers. It's not the first time either. When my dh's youngest brother got married, not only was the bride wearing flip-flops, but all the bridesmaids, EXCEPT for my dd - the Jr. bridesmaid - who was wearing white low-heeled Mary Janes. She was the only one of the females who looked appropriately dressed in the photos, including the bride. I was shocked when I saw all of them in flip-flops! Personally, when I see the slovenly and unkempt in public it says to me they have no respect for themselves. My grandmother was always impeccably dressed when she "went to town" meaning a dress, heels, matching handbag, hair set, lipstick, and her best perfume. Even after she had a stroke and had to wear a leg brace, she would wear nice pantsuits when she went out. Some of the "ensembles" I've seen worn in public, I wouldn't wear in the privacy of my own home.