The Decline of the Well Put Together Lady

[LizzieMaine]

One of the big fads on campus c. 1937 was to go around in a shapeless, ill-fitting canvas jacket covered with hand-written "funny slogans", drawings, and other such doodles. And you weren't truly one of The Crowd unless your saddle shoes were absolutely filthy dirty. The big difference is that you wouldn't think of going to church dressed like that -- it's the sense of appropriateness that's been lost, not some idealized world where every crease was sharp and every shoe was always shined.

 

[rue]

That's exactly right. My daughter wears all kinds of things to school that I would never wear, but she's never worn PJs there like a lot of the girls do and she knows how to dress when we have an occasion to go to. On the other hand, every time we invite one of her friends to go somewhere with us they ask me what they should wear because they have no idea. You wouldn't have had that problem back then... people just knew how to dress.

 

[sheeplady]

That's exactly right. My daughter wears all kinds of things to school that I would never wear, but she's never worn PJs there like a lot of the girls do and she knows how to dress when we have an occasion to go to. On the other hand, every time we invite one of her friends to go somewhere with us they ask me what they should wear because they have no idea. You wouldn't have had that problem back then... people just knew how to dress.

When I was in high school, we did "dress funny day" for charity once in a while. For instance, you could wear PJs on "PJ day" or a hat on "hat day" if you brought in a canned good or something non-perishable for the food drive. (People, at least the girls, wore clean PJs they put on that morning.) Even then, people brought clothes to change into if they were going anyplace but school- they didn't wander around the village or go into their work wearing their PJs.

To this day, I still ask how to dress for certain things. There are some things I go to which are business casual, some of which are casual, and some are formal. I'm still learning. For instance, I don't want to be the only one in a formal black suit if everyone else is wearing jeans.

I figure at least if someone is asking there is a chance they might be dressed right.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think what it all boils down to nowadays is the belief that *society doesn't have a right* to tell anyone what to do, the adult equivalent of a little kid yelling "you're not the boss of me." The Cult of The Individual, in other words, raised to its logical conclusion. And if "society doesn't have a right" to insist on this or that standard of conduct, do we truly live in a society, or are we just a lot of random individuals running around unanswerable to anyone but ourselves? Clothes are just a symptom -- the real issue is one of worldview.

 

[Caroline H]

I think what it all boils down to nowadays is the belief that *society doesn't have a right* to tell anyone what to do, the adult equivalent of a little kid yelling "you're not the boss of me." The Cult of The Individual, in other words, raised to its logical conclusion. And if "society doesn't have a right" to insist on this or that standard of conduct, do we truly live in a society, or are we just a lot of random individuals running around unanswerable to anyone but ourselves? Clothes are just a symptom -- the real issue is one of worldview.

I think you summed it up perfectly! :eusa_clap

 

[angeljenny]

I realised today that being called a lady can be meant as an insult. Someone said "oh, you're such a lady" but meant dull / prim etc.

 

[Retro_GI_Jane]

I realised today that being called a lady can be meant as an insult. Someone said "oh, you're such a lady" but meant dull / prim etc.

I've had this, from the ladies I work with in my office, however, I think it was more a comment out of jealousy as some have asked how long it takes me to do my hair in the morning or why I go through such measures to look so neat where I can throw my hair up in a sleek/"fashionably" messy bun and call it a day. As the conversation progressed, I could feel the cattiness where some thought I was trying to "one up" them. It's a shame too as most of the women are older than me and clearly old enough to remember at the very least, their mothers taking the time to set their hair. Throughout my military career I was brought up on a standard of neat appearance and professionalism...I think my vintage look only carries on that standard. Don't get me wrong, I've been through that phase too and still do when I don't have time to set my hair, but I just feel more put together when everything looks coordinated. Afterall, what is the point if you wear a nice outfit but don't feel the need to top it off with an equally outstanding 'do?

 

[Highball Emy]

I have never ever seen anyone go out in pyjamas... do you literally mean... pyjamas? Stupid question maybe, sorry!

 

[ThemThereEyes]

I have never ever seen anyone go out in pyjamas... do you literally mean... pyjamas? Stupid question maybe, sorry!

Yes, pajamas. I've seen girls walk around with pajama tops and bottoms and fuzzy stuffed animal shoes. I've seen at least one woman come in several times, wearing men's boxers, a thin t shirt, and obviously no bra.

 

[angeljenny]

I've had this, from the ladies I work with in my office, however, I think it was more a comment out of jealousy as some have asked how long it takes me to do my hair in the morning or why I go through such measures to look so neat where I can throw my hair up in a sleek/"fashionably" messy bun and call it a day. As the conversation progressed, I could feel the cattiness where some thought I was trying to "one up" them. It's a shame too as most of the women are older than me and clearly old enough to remember at the very least, their mothers taking the time to set their hair. Throughout my military career I was brought up on a standard of neat appearance and professionalism...I think my vintage look only carries on that standard. Don't get me wrong, I've been through that phase too and still do when I don't have time to set my hair, but I just feel more put together when everything looks coordinated. Afterall, what is the point if you wear a nice outfit but don't feel the need to top it off with an equally outstanding 'do?

Maybe it is an office thing! I work in an office of women and some of the comments have a fair bit of spite behind them. Things like "why do you want to look like that?" and "Did you do that to your hair on purpose?" are said in quite catty tones. Most of the women who comment are older than me. It is strange though as the younger ones in the office find it interesting (they think I am a throwback to another era just character-wise) and the much older ones at WI say such nice things. It is just that mid-age range that seem to have issues.

Oh well, my attempts at vintage give them something to talk about other than how weird I am because I don't get drunk, swear or raise my voice!

 

[ThemThereEyes]

Maybe it is an office thing! I work in an office of women and some of the comments have a fair bit of spite behind them. Things like "why do you want to look like that?" and "Did you do that to your hair on purpose?" are said in quite catty tones. Most of the women who comment are older than me. It is strange though as the younger ones in the office find it interesting (they think I am a throwback to another era just character-wise) and the much older ones at WI say such nice things. It is just that mid-age range that seem to have issues.

Oh well, my attempts at vintage give them something to talk about other than how weird I am because I don't get drunk, swear or raise my voice!

My goodness, those catty women are probably the same types that don't have any manners. Besides picking on you for something that has nothing to do with them, I bet they don't say "excuse me, please, thank you," etc. Maybe they are even the "me first" drivers. Sorry, verging off topic.
Sorry you have to put up with that. I'm glad I got away from the catty women with whom I used to work.

 

[angeljenny]

My goodness, those catty women are probably the same types that don't have any manners. Besides picking on you for something that has nothing to do with them, I bet they don't say "excuse me, please, thank you," etc. Maybe they are even the "me first" drivers. Sorry, verging off topic.
Sorry you have to put up with that. I'm glad I got away from the catty women with whom I used to work.

Sometimes it feels like I am some sort of specimen to them to be held up and picked apart! I don't help myself really as I have never been all that normal and don't hide it. Somehow everything I do or like seems to be different to everyone else!

One of the younger girls came in to work in what looked very like pyjama pants today - I didn't ask though as modern fashion just bypasses me so they could have been really trendy!

 

[katiesparkles]

oh, i see the discussion went over to uggs... ugh. i'm guilty as charged, even though i hate those things. i agree 100% with everyone on what was said: people who wear them shuffle rather than walk, they look crooked/weird after a while if you already tend to not have perfect and healthy feet, they do get smelly and.. they're plain hideous.

HOWEVER.... i got a pair for christmas from my husband's grandmother because winter in new england was killing me last year (or 2 years ago i should say, 2010). i stayed in most of that year because i was waiting for my greencard, but this year i have a long commute and boston/providence have not been pleasant. more pleasant than last year, yes, but still cold. i have an array of shoes at my office desk that i switch into once i arrive at work but outside i've been wearing the uggs since christmas. all the hideousness aside, they're just so warm and for a long commute (solely relying on public transportation) they're pretty good too.

ANYWAY...

 

[Isis]

Of course, being a slob isn't some 21st century affliction. I was reading some original late '20s and '30s Hardy Boys books over the Winter break (oh hush, they're fun lol) and quite universally, dodgy characters are referred to as very sloppy, dirty dressers whereas the nice characters are described as being neatly attired. And how about the absolute horror of girls in rolled stockings and slacks!

That reminds me of a Swedish comic called "Spara och Slösa" (Save and Spend) that started in the 1920's. Spara and Slösa are two girls, one who saves every penny and the other one who makes whoppee out of them. Spara has neat blond plaits and Slösa dark uncombed hair, with a wilting hair ribbon. The tone is very moral, and Slösa always comes up the worse for her slathern behaviour.

 

[Isis]

I realised today that being called a lady can be meant as an insult. Someone said "oh, you're such a lady" but meant dull / prim etc.

A friend of mine once told me "When I first met you I thought you were so refined and ladylike, but then I got to know you and I realized that you ARE all that, but your are not the least bit prim".

 

[AdrianLvsRocky]

A nice topical article on the BBC website today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16740199

 

[lauryn]

I never understood why people have to behave, dress etc according to their jobs. You can't expect a lawyer to be fancy and a secretary not, simply because you don't judge people according to their jobs and only that. You don't judge them according to their fashion sense either, nor the make up they might or might not wear. Of course decency is always required, but I don't see why you'd have greater expectations from a lawyer than from a secretary and so on. People can't be reduced to their jobs, nor their clothes. And if someone tries to do that we should take a stand. Maybe that's what the lawyer with the shabby trainers was doing. Showing people she can be a lawyer even without following the lawyer pattern.

 

[Miss Golightly]

A nice topical article on the BBC website today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16740199

Thank you for that! So glad to see someone here in Dublin taking a stand against PJ's in public - I just find it so gross and slovenly (and disrespectful) to go and interact with someone dressed like that - it just looks like you don't care and have completely given up on yourself.

It's like - do you ever put something on and you just don't feel right in it - like the ensemble is doing you no favours? You just don't feel as good as you would if, for example, you put on something you know flatters you - I think it genuinely makes such a difference to how you approach the day. For example, this morning I put on a black sweater and black cropped jeans - I loved the sweater and HATED the jeans - they're just not right - so they are going to the charity shop (I'm reading Bonjour Happiness! at the moment (lovely read!) and it's firmed my resolve to give away all the things that just don't work for me!)!

When you look good I think you feel good and it emanates from you. How can lazing around in your PJ's make you feel good about your appearance? I just don't get it.....

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think it's a matter of expecting a certain uniform to be worn under certain circumstances. A lawyer might shuffle to the office in a mangy corduroy bathrobe and carpet slippers, and might be an attorney of remarkable skill -- but is the person off the street looking for legal representation going to come to that conclusion at first glance? We expect a certain dignity in the courtroom, a certain committment to professionalism, and dressing appropriately is an outward sign of that. Attending to details like that gives one confidence that other, more important details are also being attended to.

Not to say you couldn't have a well-dressed shyster -- in fact, I'd think dressing well would be even more important for an incompetent professional than for a competent one. But nobody's going to trust someone who looks like a slob to handle their important personal affairs, not even if the slob is the second coming of Clarence Darrow. It's just human nature.

 

[sheeplady]

It's part of a culture of a profession in how they dress.

Now I am not saying that we should always respect everything about a professional culture (some of the things that are supported by professional cultures are downright disturbing) but dress is seen as a vital part of most professional cultures. If you want to be a member, be accepted, there are rules to be followed. There is some flexibility in every professional culture- depending upon where you work. A bank on Wall Street has a much different clothing culture than a bank in a small city or a town.

Having dressed from business formal (blue, black, sometimes gray) to business casual at work, I can tell you business formal is the easiest on your wallet. I have no idea if it's cheaper than jeans, a t-shirt, and flip-flops, but I've never worked in a place that is casual.

I did see on TV the other day that the new look for clothing is PJ styled, so they are actually producing clothes that look like PJs to be worn in public.