The decline of good parenting...

[Mycroft]

Well put LaMedicine. As an example of this I know this school near my house where it is an amazing school for acdemics and create a great enviorment to excell in. It also is longer than conventional schools, about an extra hour. So parents send their children there and they are watched and brought up right, but the parents do not when the kids finally come home. These kids who go to the school come home they are nasty, spoiled, and rude for the most part and get a supiority complex because they go to this school and they are "untouchable." The parents passing the buck like this to the school to "rear" their children is horrible, unless the parents continue with the same standerds at home.

 

[LaMedicine]

Sure, I know I'm being idealistic. But I grew up in a time and place when a word or two from caring neighbors and strangers were enough to keep us kids in line. I'm not saying the government should step in, I'd ask them to keep out (look at the countries where the government keeps strict control over everything!) , but communities, or, in my line of work, prenatal/postnatal workshops sponsored by ob clinics, PCPs, nurse practicioners, or others with professional training, or even experienced mothers, could be a starting point and better than nothing. A shelter where girls/women can turn to when they have nobody else to turn to for support, nobody else to ask questions. Quite obviously, there are people who CARE, but the way things are, it isn't easy these days to say a word or two to a misbehaving child in public, without being misunderstood, or even be violently protested. So, a halfway meeting point might be something that's feasible.

Also, thank you everyone for appreciating my post.
My thoughts are actually a collective thought of many of my friends, as many of us are mothers, and every so often, we find ourselves going into this tangent, what is our responsibility as a mother, as a parent. Not too far in the future, it's going to turn into, "What is our responsibility as a grandmother?"

 

[Section10]

You make some good points LaMedicine and yes, there are people who care and parents who want outside help should have a place to go to get it. I have some reservations about who is capable to offer such help, but I am not really talking about desperate destitute mothers. I'm talking about those who are perfectly willing to let parenting slide along in benign oblivion to what their children are learning. It would be very hard to get these folks to sit down and submit to parenting classes without forcing them and how does one address that?

 

[DanielJones]

Heck, I faced far more abuse in the Marine Corp then I did at the hands of my Mother & Father, and I thought the Marines treated me pretty swell. I only got a few spankings from my Mother, and acting up in public got the threat of one, but it was never deliverd because I straightened up. The only times I got a slap was because of my mouth and it did end up hurting her had worse than my face (I was a bony child). Now did she abuse me, NEVER. She corrected a bad behavior before it got out of hand that was appropriate for the time.
For me and my boy, all I have to do is bark his name (using the Marine voice deep down) and he straightens up tootsweet. That and the disappointed low quiet voice gets the job done as well. My Dad did the same thing and it works. That's all I have to do. My Dad only spanked me once in my life, and boy howdy, did I ever deserve it. I know for a fact that I did. Never again did I attempt to anger that man on purpose.
That's all I have to say on that.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[MK]

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There are plenty of opinions already expressed here of the different schools of thought, so I won't bother adding my own.

I will point out a semantic obsevation. Some have called spanking, hitting, beating and abuse. If that is the case, the doctor stabbed me with a needle and the dentist abused my teeth.

I guess it all comes down to whether we think the pain being administered is beneficial to the patient if it is "abuse" or not.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

True. Doctors, rabbis and imams slice off the ends of baby boys' penises all the time.
Dismemberment? Butchery? Mutilation? I wouldn't say so, but plenty do.

 

[Senator Jack]

Originally posted by MK -

I will point out a semantic obsevation. Some have called spanking, hitting, beating and abuse. If that is the case, the doctor stabbed me with a needle and the dentist abused my teeth.

Point, Set, Thread : MK


Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[shamus]

Doublespeak is fun isn't it...

 

[The Wingnut]

I'm going to endure 6 years of verbal, psychological and physical abuse from the USAF! *chuckle*

Amazing...I'm not shocked at people's viewpoints(I know how screwed up people are, I hang out in places like this to escape), just that they're trying to paint everyone else with their own brush. I'd typed up a LONG reply to this thread yesterday, so long that my login timed out by the time I hit submit...lost the whole thing. Shrugged, figured it wasn't worth it and the thread would die.

You guys still trying to change each others' minds? Baffling.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Parents and non-parents can argue what constitutes abuse, however one should check with state laws before moving forward with physical discipline- it's illegal in some states.

Having worked as a counselor, I can tell you that if "spanking" was the answer, we'd have a nation of well behaved kids.

 

[nightandthecity]

There are plenty of opinions already expressed here of the different schools of thought, so I won't bother adding my own.

I will point out a semantic obsevation. Some have called spanking, hitting, beating and abuse. If that is the case, the doctor stabbed me with a needle and the dentist abused my teeth.

I guess it all comes down to whether we think the pain being administered is beneficial to the patient if it is "abuse" or not.

Oh dear, I had resolved to keep out of these discussions. My time on the lounge is limited and I came to talk about clothes. But I can?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t let you get away with that one!

When you go to the dentist he violates your body but with your consent to achieve an end you desire e.g. no more toothache. He attempts to do this with the minimum of pain and discomfort to you.

When a parent smacks a child they do so without the child?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s consent, to achieve an end desired by the parent not the child (and not necessarily even a desirable end) and the aim is to inflict pain.

What the parent is doing is exactly the same as the guy who taps you on the head with a bit of lead pipe and takes your wallet. Again, that doesn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t necessarily mean its wrong but please lets not obfuscate the issue: smacking kids is violence, dentistry isn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t. The argument is about whether this violence is justifiable (I don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t personally think so, but I had my say on this issue last groundhog day ?¢‚Ǩ‚Äú do we really have to debate this issue every few weeks?)

 

[Senator Jack]

If a child goes to stick his finger in an outlet, wouldn't you smack his hands? Thus, outlet = pain = bad. Certainly, the child is going to cry, but isn't that better for him than the shock? And before anyone says I'm mixing apples and oranges, we can extend that to bad behavior = pain = bad. I'd rather have well-mannered children with a few sore butts than a world of tyrannical, self-centered adults, which, unfortunatley, is coming upon us fast.

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[Section10]

What the parent is doing is exactly the same as the guy who taps you on the head with a bit of lead pipe and takes your wallet. Again, that doesn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t necessarily mean its wrong but please lets not obfuscate the issue: smacking kids is violence, dentistry isn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t. The argument is about whether this violence is justifiable (I don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t personally think so, but I had my say on this issue last groundhog day ?¢‚Ǩ‚Äú do we really have to debate this issue every few weeks?)

The guy who inflicts pain and takes your wallet really sounds more like the dentist to me.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

If a child goes to stick his finger in an outlet, wouldn't you smack his hands? Thus, outlet = pain = bad. Certainly, the child is going to cry, but isn't that better for him than the shock? And before anyone says I'm mixing apples and oranges, we can extend that to bad behavior = pain = bad. I'd rather have well-mannered children with a few sore butts than a world of tyrannical, self-centered adults, which, unfortunatley, is coming upon us fast.

Regards,

Senator Jack

But there is a huge difference between swatting a hand reaching into an outlet to avoid an immediate danger, versus a kid who was naughty and THEN using physical means to "teach a lesson." If I had a child and he/she ran across the street and was about to get hit by a car, of course I yank them back. Would I then yank and slap them around after they were safe? No, to me that is not the same kind of physical reaction to avoid pain. Now, would they lose privileges and be grounded for life? You betcha.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Oh dear, I had resolved to keep out of these discussions. My time on the lounge is limited and I came to talk about clothes. But I can?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t let you get away with that one!

When you go to the dentist he violates your body but with your consent to achieve an end you desire e.g. no more toothache. He attempts to do this with the minimum of pain and discomfort to you.

When a parent smacks a child they do so without the child?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s consent, to achieve an end desired by the parent not the child (and not necessarily even a desirable end) and the aim is to inflict pain.

What the parent is doing is exactly the same as the guy who taps you on the head with a bit of lead pipe and takes your wallet. Again, that doesn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t necessarily mean its wrong but please lets not obfuscate the issue: smacking kids is violence, dentistry isn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t. The argument is about whether this violence is justifiable (I don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t personally think so, but I had my say on this issue last groundhog day ?¢‚Ǩ‚Äú do we really have to debate this issue every few weeks?)

Thank you for posting this. I have a headache, self-abuse related. I'm done with this thread.

 

[drkilmer]

Some of the worst behaved kids I know are the ones whose parents routinely hit them for being bad. Hitting your kids seems like a great way to make them more agressive and to develop a more adversarial relationship with them. It's also the "easy way out" of parenting, in my humble view. Yes, I have kids. Two very well behaved ones. And I have never hit either of them. (Oh ... I've WANTED to a few times!) Yes, I dislike sitting near a table in a restaurant where there is an unruly or loud child ... just as I dislike people smoking around me, or talking on their cell phones, or wearing way too much stinky cologne, or being better looking than I am (that last one's easy!). I do agree that it is irresponsible for parents to simply ignore their children when they are being disruptive in public. But hitting them is a bad thing to do. Your family should be your inviolable source of security. My wife grew up being hit and scared sh*tless by her father, while her mother stood by and tried to ignore it. Screwed her up real good, too ... maybe it "taught her a lesson". OK ... I'll stop now before some one wants to hit ME.

 

[Steve]

Some of the worst behaved kids I know are the ones whose parents routinely hit them for being bad. Hitting your kids seems like a great way to make them more agressive and to develop a more adversarial relationship with them. It's also the "easy way out" of parenting, in my humble view. Yes, I have kids. Two very well behaved ones. And I have never hit either of them. (Oh ... I've WANTED to a few times!) Yes, I dislike sitting near a table in a restaurant where there is an unruly or loud child ... just as I dislike people smoking around me, or talking on their cell phones, or wearing way too much stinky cologne, or being better looking than I am (that last one's easy!). I do agree that it is irresponsible for parents to simply ignore their children when they are being disruptive in public. But hitting them is a bad thing to do. Your family should be your inviolable source of security. My wife grew up being hit and scared sh*tless by her father, while her mother stood by and tried to ignore it. Screwed her up real good, too ... maybe it "taught her a lesson". OK ... I'll stop now before some one wants to hit ME.

Just out of curiosity, do the parents lose their cool before hitting them or calmly take them aside and explain to them what they are being punished for prior to the "pop?"

 

[Senator Jack]

I think those against are under the impression that the fors are condoning child abuse. We're not talking about terrorizing a child with a cat o' nine tails, but a swat when needed. My father didn't give me a rap on the mouth for whining but he did give me one for sass. I deserved it, and never did I sass again. I now have friends with kids and I can't believe what the kids say to the adults. Go to hell. I hate you. Drop dead. What do the far-too-liberal parents say, nay ask, 'Now that's not a nice thing to say, is it?' These parents even have to ask permission of the child to be on the phone 'Daddy's on the phone now. Can daddy talk?' Those against keep going on how the fors would love Victorian England, when children were thought of as 'little adults', but trying to reason with them as little adults, as we do now, doesn't seem to work either.

There certainly are too many parents who go overboard with the swatting. They're miserable people who should have never had kids in the first place. But getting on the phone to child services when you see a father swatting an unruly child is judging everyone by the worst of society. I think level-headed people can tell correction from abuse.


regards,

Senator Jack

 

[MK]

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This discussion is down an odd road.

Spanking .....doesn't make a child or a parent good or bad. Being rich or poor doesn't put on in either catagory either in of it's self. Spanking is not THE answer. It is a tool. An option...that shouldn't be needed much.

Rarely having to spank is success. Having to spank all the time is failure. If you have to spank contantly, something is very wrong and we all have seen parents that ARE bullies. Nothing is a substitute for maturity, wisdom, education and most importantly communication. If you can raise your child ever spanking at all.... good for you. You are a very lucky parent. Be thankful you have a child that has a calm personality and that your other means of dicipline are effective enough to get the job done. Bravo.

 

[John in Covina]

That's about right!

I think MK has hit the nail on the head with his explanation.