The death of craftsmanship in America

[jpdesign]

I feel we can all agree that the craftsman is a dieing breed.

The true craftsman has almost disappeared. The man who apprentices with a master, then strikes out on his own to make his fortune and perfect his craft is almost nonexistent. Today, if someone feels like making something, the internet has made it possible to get supplies and read instructions and learn the mechanics of making whatever it is they want to make. This is not the same as learning under the tutelage of someone who has already spent many years working at what is being taught and learned. I spent six years working under a master hatter. I would have liked it to be 10, as this is a traditional apprentiship. I have spent two more working and building on what I learned first hand. Because of the shortness on my teaching I do not feel that I will be able to call myself a master hatter for at least another 5 years, if then. I am trying to become a master hatter, not just a hatter that taught himself to make hats with a few suggestions here and there from another hatter.

For a craftsman to truly become a master they must work at their craft over time. This does not happen in today’s "immediate gratification" society. This was brought about by the internet. People can look up the cost on just about anything and then go negotiate a price in a store.

If someone knows what the materials I use for a hat cost, then they can negotiate the cost of the hat down to where I get paid almost nothing for the labor that goes into my works. I do not go into a Bootmakers shop and ask him what the leathers he is going to make my boots from cost him to buy. I do not go into a Tailor's shop and ask what the fabrics for my suit cost him. I do not go to buy a car and ask what the steel cost to build it. This is information that should only be privy to craftsperson themselves. What the charge over the cost of the materials goes to paying his bills and paying him for his time, his sweat, his exhaustion. I work hard at creating my hats. I work to produce the best hat possible. I have been working at it for eight years. I want to be rewarded for the time I have put into perfecting this craft, this art. Does an artist get paid based on the cost of his paints or clay. People like me, Fedora, Art, and any other hatter, just like any other craftsman, have spent time and money tracking down near extinct tools, learning how to use those tools properly, and turning raw materials in to works of art. I, and I believe they too, put my heart and soul into my creations. We deserve something in return. This is the first time I have said my hats are a work of art, many others have said it for me. It is not the materials that make the hat; it is the person working with those materials. When you haggle with a reseller, you are only cutting into their bottom line. When you haggle with a craftsman, you are cutting their worth, the value of their work.

With the internet, any one can buy hat bodies and make hats. To make a quality hat that you can make over and over you have to go to a vendor for the materials. For this you either need to be incorporated or have a tax id number. This is also an expense.

If another hatter has questions about making hats I will answer to the best of my ability. There may be a trick or two that I have come up with that I will not give up (Like being able to reblock a wool hat). If someone wants to become a hatter and seeks me out, and wants to learn to make hats in person, I will teach them. If they show promise I may even employ then, they may then truly start to learn the craft. But if a customer wants to ask questions about the process I will only tells them so much and that is it. This knowledge in not widely know for a reason. Knowledge is power. Power from knowledge is valuable. Power without knowledge is soon shown to be worthless. My knowledge can feed my family for the rest of my life, as long as I don't sell it too cheaply. That is what a person buying a hat from me will get, the benefit of my labor and knowledge goes into everything I create.

This is how I feel. In that vain I will tell you that what I paid for the chinchilla body I made the hat from was obscene. I saw it in the stack. I decided that I wanted to be the one to make that hat. So, I bought it. The price I am asking is what I feel I should be able to sell it for, wether it actually covers what my time is worth or not.

Jimmy

 

[jpdesign]

I admit I may be shooting myself in the foot with the previous post. But I have been asked too many questions over the internet, both here and elswhere, that a Gentleman just doesn't ask in person. People seem to think the internet is free reign to ask what ever they want and get it answered.

Jimmy

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Well said.

As an artist that has recently branched off into the medium of leather jacket nose art, I fully understand where you're coming from. I have had to procure decent used jackets, and they are not cheap. Paints in an entirely new medium to which I was unaccustomed. Brushes and other materials. My time and effort in both research and the actual painting itself.
But I have also a hard time getting a fair price for all my efforts. I think that the majority of people nowadays are so used to instant gratification via mass produced goods, that they may have no concept of what it takes to produce a well crafted item, entirely by hand.

 

[Steve]

American craftsmanship is not completely dead yet; if you go to Branson, MO in the fall, Silver Dollar City hosts an annual even called "Great American Craftsmanship Festival," or something to that effect. It is truly amazing to see people who ply their trades in a traditional way, and make beautiful and useful things that are hard to find elsewhere.

 

[Michaelson]

Jimmie, I started to reply to this over at COW, but the string disappeared, so I'm here instead. I'm not exactly sure what caused you to feel this needed posting, but believe me, folks are more aware of this than you realize. It's true in not only the hat making craft, but any craft designed to keep other lost arts alive....such as watchmakers, who can actually MAKE things work instead of just plugging it in and having it self diagnose itself, and their craft is learned at the side of a master through apprenticeship.

An apprenticeship is something that is also a lost art. It's something that few realize takes years and years of hard work to come to the point that the master passes the apprentice on to start his OWN shop. I also know this from personal experience through my son-in-law, who is a armorer/master of the guild (actually TWO guilds), and served TWO apprenticeships with two masters to learn two disciplines before he was handed his coin.

So, though it may appear a true craftsman isn't appreciated, they are....YOU are...believe me.

HIGH regards, and deepest respects!

Michaelson

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Interesting. I looked into doing an apprenticeship in the UK when i'm done here. Guess what ... I'm too old!! Over 24, you're not allowed to be an apprentice.

Hmm, and the British government complains that there aren't enough apprentices :eusa_doh: .

bk

 

[jpdesign]

I guess it is most about the lack of respect in society today. Respect for what someone has accomplished. I am dealing with it in almost every facet of my life at the moment. There were once things that people kept to themselves out of respect for those who came before, for those who taught them. When you take someone in and teach them the things you know, you expect them to use them wisely and not just go around telling who ever may ask. I keep getting asked things that are intimate knowledge to hatters, and people get made at me when I say that I will not answer that because it is one of the things that allows me to do my work as well as I can. It is one of the "Tricks o' me trade". I had someone get irrate with me the other day because he felt I wasn't giving and indepth enough description of what I was going to do to fix his hat, and anymore indepth and he would have been able to just take it home and do it himself.

Even 2 or 3 years ago, I was never asked to reveal techniques of the trade. And if some one asked and you said you couldn't tell them they understood. But now it seems I am expected to give up all my information I have accumulated over the years without even thinking about it.

I guess I am just old fashioned. If I say I can do something, I can do it. If I make a mistake I own up to it. I am not going to take in some one's hat and then mess it up and say it was a problem with the hat. Which is something that many people have done around here, apperantly. I will tell someone up front the things that may or may not happen when I work on their hat.

I guess it is just venting about the current situation of the world.
Jimmy

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I guess it is most about the lack of respect in society today. Respect for what someone has accomplished. I am dealing with it in almost every facet of my life at the moment. There were once things that people kept to themselves out of respect for those who came before, for those who taught them. When you take someone in and teach them the things you know, you expect them to use them wisely and not just go around telling who ever may ask. I keep getting asked things that are intimate knowledge to hatters, and people get made at me when I say that I will not answer that because it is one of the things that allows me to do my work as well as I can. It is one of the "Tricks o' me trade". I had someone get irrate with me the other day because he felt I wasn't giving and indepth enough description of what I was going to do to fix his hat, and anymore indepth and he would have been able to just take it home and do it himself.

Even 2 or 3 years ago, I was never asked to reveal techniques of the trade. And if some one asked and you said you couldn't tell them they understood. But now it seems I am expected to give up all my information I have accumulated over the years without even thinking about it.

I guess I am just old fashioned. If I say I can do something, I can do it. If I make a mistake I own up to it. I am not going to take in some one's hat and then mess it up and say it was a problem with the hat. Which is something that many people have done around here, apperantly. I will tell someone up front the things that may or may not happen when I work on their hat.

I guess it is just venting about the current situation of the world.
Jimmy

Non-disclosures and non-compete agreements are advised if you are going to reveal your proprietary information. It would be nice if all could be sealed with a handshake, but alas that is not the case. It's ok if people get mad at you because they aren't getting their way; just see it as a temper tantrum and continue in your professional and polite discourse with them.

 

[matei]

It isn't just American craftsmanship - it is dying out in Europe as well. I might be generalisng, but it seems that anywhere you go, the people you described who worked hard to master their trade are disappearing, and no one is taking their place as it is no longer feasible. We've evolved into an instant gratification/disposable society.

That holds unless you are an eccentric millionaire, like Daniel Day Lewis. I read that he gave up big roles to go and learn how to make shoes. Good on him.

The guys and gals in this forum who take the time and effort to learn how things were done once upon a time, thus keeping those crafts alive, are to be commended.

 

[jake_fink]

A craft is more than just information, a craft is process and that process is guided by skill and experience. If a customer wants to know what a craftsman is going to do there is a certain amount of information that is going to be fair game, afterall it is the customer's property the craftsman is working on and no-one wants any bad surprises. If the customer can go off and do the job themsleves without training, with only "information" then let them do so. If they make a hash of the job they have no-one to blame but themsleves, and they will learn to appreciate the craft and the master.

Craftsmanship itself has been been dying since the dawn of the industrial revolution; every generation it dies a little more as the world around us and our culture becomes more homgenized and less tolerant of anything that is not immediate or convenient.

The internet has done the most damage to the craft of refelective, responsible, skilled writing. Everyone's a critic, every knob with a blog's suddenly a pro. Sites like Ain't It Cool News have helped to reset the level of discourse around film to bone-headed lows.

 

[Pilgrim]

Jake has it right when he says:

"Craftsmanship itself has been been dying since the dawn of the industrial revolution; every generation it dies a little more as the world around us and our culture becomes more homgenized and less tolerant of anything that is not immediate or convenient."

I think this is very perceptive. As the creation/manufacture of objects became mechanized, more goods became available to people and the role of the craftsman with unique, proprietary knowledge diminished.

There are still businesses that depend on craftsman-level knowledge, but their customers tend to be those with higher incomes, and who are willing to pay for the labor and expertise that go into creation of the product - artwork - mechanism - whatever.

There is one challenge in finding a way to market to that specific kind of customer, because they are drastically fewer in number than those who are happy with mass-produced goods. In truth, in most cases the mass produced goods are perfectly suitable for people. At its base level, a hat is head protection - perhaps with style added. Many people consider them utilitarian and disposable. See: baseball caps.

There is another challenge around the aesthetic appeal of producing and selling a craftsman product. One of the main reasons that people with income and taste buy such a product is that they feel they are acquiring something that is made at a higher level of quality, and that appeals to a more educated taste. But most people aren't even aware of the issue when it comes to hats. (A hat is a hat is a hat. There are baseball caps and berets and hats made with felt - aren't they all wool? Do they still make those hats from fur? They do? Oh, isn't that interesting....) So you're not going to sell a $300 custom to someone who is happy to get a $19.95 LL Bean crushable Aussie hat. OTOH, the $300 hat buyer wouldn't even look at the LL Bean hat.

Jimmy, I salute your interest in producing hats at the higher level of this sales/desire/market continuum. I hope you are successful in sustaining your business.

 

[Cabinetman]

I lost my connection earlier today, and am glad to read now some of the posts since I made my attempt, as I found some of the same thoughts. Good points.

One is only a craftsman if those for whom he or she is creating thinks he or she is. Their experiences in life help to determine what to call you, just as yours help you to determine or define what or who you think you are. It is similar to an item being only worth as much as someone else is willing to pay for it. What I have found in my professional "crafting" career thus far is that those that are willing to wait are willing to pay, and those that are willing to pay are patient to wait. Do they appreciate fine work more than the next guy who wants it right now and doesn't want to give you anything for it? It seems so, and those are the customers I want to have. Those that are impatient, or don't want to pay what we think is a fair price for our product, are the customers I don't want. I don't immediately drop the idea of working for them, but I don't make many concessions. Much of the time, you have a pretty good idea that this isn't going to go anywhere. You go ahead and give them an estimate, and maybe you're lucky enough to hear back from them with a, "no," and sometimes even a, "no thank you." Brush it off and move on. You didn't really want their work anyway.

There is nothing wrong with saying no to people either. It seems weird when they are coming to you for your potential services, but you can turn away work. Many times, it's simply due to scheduling. I didn't get two jobs recently because I couldn't meet their schedule. No big deal. Hopefully they turn out happy, and I am able to move other clients up on my list, and that makes them happy. I had another potential client asking for an estimate to reface her kitchen. I gave her very rough figures, but accurate enough based on previous work. And accurate enough for her needs. She didn't doubt my work, and actually called on a recommendation from a friend (word of mouth is wonderful, and it says a lot), but it was beyond the amount she wanted to spend. Now this is a case where I believe she appreciated the craft, and me personally, but simply couldn't afford it, no matter how much she appreciated it.

Something else: "Your customers will run you into the ground if you let them." I read this in a trade magazine once. It was a one-sometimes-two-man shop (I'm a one-man) that became more successful and much happier once he realized that he couldn't let the customer control the way he worked. It really hit home with me at the time, and it's made a difference in my life. All you can do is all you can do. As long as it's your best, that's great. Once confident enough in yourself and your work, then that's it. If somebody wants to know the process, then tell them. They're probably truly interested, but not in making hats themselves, or cabinets or furniture. So what if they are.

Associated costs are your business. I do agree. If they want a parts and price list, then they probably really don't want your product. More importantly, perhaps, you really don't want to make it for them.

Am I a true craftsman in my perceived traditional sense of the description? No. I use electricity and worked under no one before going out on my own. I am self-taught and own only a handful of hand tools (planes, chisels, etc.). Have I been called a craftsman by others? You bet your boots. There is definite romance in doing things in a time-honored way. Without question. And that can, and many times is, a selling point. But different methods don't really matter. Doctors today do things so differently than they did years ago, but they're still called doctors. (Would a surgeon be a craftsman? In some cases, I suppose.)

I may come back to this, but for now I have to make an appointment. Sorry if I left something hanging.

Cab

And I am back from my appointment. I think that's pretty much it. Of these posts, and my own thoughts I've had, I believe that most of the population (from what I can tell) is becoming more satisfied with (my opinion of) mediocrity. Today's high quality is yesterday's trash. I am exaggerating, of course, but people are "happy" with much less quality/durability/craft now. But what we must always remember is, "to each his own." And that's okay. If we are in business, creating what we feel is something pretty wonderful, it's up to us to promote it. We are then so fortunate when friends talk and we get the referral. It can become quite personal, too, and that's nice.

 

[Michaelson]

I believe that most of the population (from what I can tell) is becoming more satisfied with (my opinion of) mediocrity. Today's high quality is yesterday's trash. I am exaggerating, of course, but people are "happy" with much less quality/durability/craft now.

Cab, I honestly believe it's that today's population doesn't know any better. Many of us were fighting for quality stuff back in the 70's, but the manufacturers were cranking out quantity rather than quality (I'm talking about clothing here), and if one didn't want it, go somewhere else. The next two generations have come along, and what we thought junk is now considered the norm. When you show someone a quality piece of true workmanship, it's kind of fun to see their jaw hit the floor, and with bugged out eyes, them say 'WHERE DID YOU FIND THAT???!!!'

Sad thing is, the item you showed them was considered a normal piece of work only 20 to 30+ years ago, and we're fortunate to find a pocket of craftsmen still willing to take the extra effort to still make them the 'old fashioned way'. I honestly believe more folks are taking note of this than most would believe.

As long as the younger folks pick up the torch, and DEMAND quality again, not much will change....but I think the current crop of 'youngn's are a LOT more savy than given credit to be, and craftsmen will be swamped again for quality work.

High regards! Michaelson

 

[Tin Pan Sally]

It’s a pre-fabricated world.

I for one, do thank you for taking pride in your finished product. As I mentioned on another thread, I come from a long line of milliners. My grandmother died when my Mother was only five years old, so we had no one to show us the secret tricks of the trade. The line died with her. It is a lost art. Although I don't know your work first-hand, I’m glad you are keeping it alive.
An apprenticeship (of sorts) is the only way to learn any craft beyond the basics. The chances that a true master artisan will teach classes at a community college are slim. A few semesters won't be enough hands-on training to develop exceptional skills, no matter the natural knack. That is why most colleges follow up with an apprenticeship for more serious students.
Aside from the Midwest, we have too many companies sending inexpensive quick fixes overseas for mass production. Quality isn't in demand, bargains are. People shop off the rack and wear S/M/L as is, with no alterations. Fit detail, and durability just aren't important these days.
A friend of mine taught himself to sew on his grandmother’s machine. That's when he realized how poorly made store clothing often is. He also realized how difficult it is just to make a plain old shirt. He now appreciates the value of well made items by professional milliners, cobblers, tailors, jewelers, luthiers, masons, carpenters, etc.

 

[Brad Bowers]

The bottom line is that Americans have demanded low prices, which has destroyed the manufacturing sector of our economy, not just the craftsmen sector. Even those rich folks that can afford to pay premium prices rarely do. Just ask my brother, an artist, who has worked with some very wealthy clients. They hardly want to pay him for his time. "Lowest Price" has become America's mantra, and it's costing us.

Would I buy a custom suit, custom hat, or custom cabinets if I could afford them? You betcha I would! I appreciate the work that goes into the finished product. My bottom line is that I'm currently stuck having to search for the lowest prices because I can't afford anything else. How many in our society are in the same boat with me?

As for the lack of up-and-coming craftsmen, I think economic reality precludes this from happening. Heck, I'd love to apprentice with a master hatter, but I couldn't pay my bills if I did that. That's why you see folks striking out on their own and learning as they go. With the high cost of living, there is no other way.

Brad

 

[Cabinetman]

Cab, I honestly believe it's that today's population doesn't know any better.

Well, there it is.

Many of us were fighting for quality stuff back in the 70's, but the manufacturers were cranking out quantity rather than quality (I'm talking about clothing here), and if one didn't want it, go somewhere else. The next two generations have come along, and what we thought junk is now considered the norm.

Whoever "they" are: "They don't make 'em like they used to." Perhaps it's more appropriate to say, "We don't buy 'em like we used to." Whether that's a choice or not. In some cases, aren't we glad they don't make 'em like they used to? I'm speaking to no specific product.

When you show someone a quality piece of true workmanship, it's kind of fun to see their jaw hit the floor, and with bugged out eyes, them say 'WHERE DID YOU FIND THAT???!!!'

Had it happen to me, actually. It was awesome. I built a piece that my customer named, "The Nathan Carls," and a friend of hers (a fellow antiquer) asked her where she happened onto such a piece. When my client told her it was new, I am told the friend reacted similarly to the jaw drop described above.

Sad thing is, the item you showed them was considered a normal piece of work only 20 to 30+ years ago, and we're fortunate to find a pocket of craftsmen still willing to take the extra effort to still make them the 'old fashioned way'. I honestly believe more folks are taking note of this than most would believe.

If they weren't, I'd not have any work. In conversations with others, and being in and around different markets, it's simply been my experience that many folks are happy with less. Of course, many want as much of the less that they can get. "It might be junk, but look how much of it I have." And then there are the things that are quite lovely on the surface, but have little comparable worth underneath.

As long as the younger folks pick up the torch, and DEMAND quality again, not much will change....but I think the current crop of 'youngn's are a LOT more savy than given credit to be, and craftsmen will be swamped again for quality work.

I'll agree with that. I have had younger clients who are quite pleased with buying my goods. It's reflected in other parts of their home, too. It's refreshing.

High regards! Michaelson

I want to share with you something that is very hard to take. I suppose I am like the cobbler whose childeren don't have any shoes. But when my wife ("Amapola," here on the Lounge) brought in some slap-o-matic bookcases from Wal-Mart one day, I thought I would be sick. With this, I do not exaggerate. As I proceeded to put them together, I felt physically sick to my stomach, and could not believe these were coming into my house, much less that I was actually putting them togther. And my mother-in-law...Oh, jeez. She recently purchased a craparella armoire for our bedroom because we don't live like she thinks we should (much more, longer, way off-topic story there). I have never been impressed with most hotel furniture, but this is even worse than that.

 

[Twitch]

We have craftsmen that produce quality goods but they are few. The demand for cheap prices has spawned crap stores like Ikea with crap goods made from pressed wood chips called furniture for example. It runs through virtually every type of product. By the way, anyone remember when stores deliverd to you? Now they charge big for it when you tell them you're not picking up the washer and dryer from their dock.

It's not only goods but services as well. The damned telephone round and round game of "press one if you want..." The companies just don't want anything but your money and don't want to talk to you for any reason so they make the phone system as tedious as possible. Then they don't have full service websites to take up the slack either so you're stuck.

So the bottom line really is buy everyday cheap crap or buy quality items that last when you can find them and spend up the kazoo.

 

[J. M. Stovall]

It all started with Henry Ford and his discovery of "Planned Obsolescence". Planned obsolescence is the marketing strategy of deliberately introducing obsolescence into a product strategy. Before that everything was made to last OR made to fix. People stopped buying Fords and they determined that it was for two reasons, they didn't change them from year to year and they didn't wear out. I once read how just 100 years ago there were umbrella repair men that would travel around a city, now we just throw them away. We throw everything away. It's impossible to get a Microwave or a VCR fixed anymore, they are just too cheap and designed to last only a few years.

Suits, hats, cars, shoes-they don't want anything to last no matter what it is.

 

[Burma Shave]

What prompted this?

JP: I understand where you're coming from, but I think you've overstated several things. I am a photographer, and I've had people ask why I charge so much more for a portrait than Olan Mills or Sears does. After all, film is film, right? They don't care that I have been using a camera almost daily for close to 20 years, that I have degrees in photography and journalism, that I've both won awards from the Associated Press for photography and had 10 one-man shows, etc. They care about the price they're being charged.

And if that's all they care about, then I know they're not my kind of customer.

"If someone knows what the materials I use for a hat cost, then they can negotiate the cost of the hat down to where I get paid almost nothing for the labor that goes into my works," you said. Not true. They can only negotiate down the cost if you're willing to let them.

The price of materials is "information that should only be privy to craftsperson themselves," you continued. Why? What difference does it make whether someone knows how much materials were? I used to work as a tree surgeon. When we cut trees, if someone didn't want the wood, I'd haul it away, chop it up, and sell it for firewood to other people. My cost for the materials? Nothing. But that didn't affect the worth of the "finished product."

When I charged only my materials cost for photos, I made about $10-$20 for a print. Now that I refuse to sell my work so cheaply, I get anywhere from $80-300, depending on how much I like the person I'm selling it to. Materials cost has nothing to do with it.

"I work to produce the best hat possible." -- Good. Do so. And if people want to buy the hats, they will do so.

You said, "I want to be rewarded for the time I have put into perfecting this craft, this art." No offense, but you don't deserve to be rewarded for the time you've put into perfecting any art. That's not personal. No one does, including myself, as a photographer or writer. I am not rewarded for the time I've put into photography, or the money I've spent on materials and tools. I am paid for a product I turn out. Period.

Again, I understand your frustration at people's ignorance as to the value of art. I don't make a living at art. I work 75 or so hours per week, and have done so for years, so I could make enough money to pay for both bills and my art. Even going through college, I worked 45 hours a week, going to school full time, so I could afford supplies, food, etc. (I've been out of college for 10 years now, thank God. It gives me more time to work.) I do sell pieces, I do portraits, and I've sometimes had to take photo jobs I didn't want to do, to pay bills. But do I "deserve" to be paid for the time and effort that has gone into my work? No way. The only way I deserve to make any money at all is if someone wants to pay for what I've done.

If you want to make the best hats in the world, do so. If all you want is to make a living (or be "rewarded") -- work for the government, become a salesman, or find something else to do.

 

[Lincsong]

If you have to ask you can't afford it.

I think it is absolutely insulting for a customer to ask someone how much did blank cost you to make. It's none of their business. Do they into a restaurant and ask how much that stack of pancakes costs? I'll let you all into a little secret each pancake costs about 3 cents, the eggs 2 cents, toast 2 cents, syrup 8 cents, two strips of bacon 10 cents. Total 31 cents! and what does the restaurant charge? $4 to $6 dollars. So there's mark up in everything and everyone has to live.
I myself could not understand anyone going into a discounter and plunking down $150 for a table made of glued sawdust covered by a sticker. Or paying $300 for furniture made of pieces of plywood and particle board that's held together with staples. This stuff will probably last 3-4 years and then be worn out. It's better to do without for a little while, save some money, buy quality the first time and have it last a whole lot longer.