The Bowler or Derby Hat

[itsbruce]

I thought I had a lot of hats, Steve. Seems I don't.

 

[mayserwegener]

Richard, Alan, Harv, Bruce, Thanks! I did sell some (5?) of them.

 

[Chepstow]

Holy Maria and Josef that is a superbe Collection Steve.
Really fantastic!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[mayserwegener]

Manfred, Thanks! And I have slowed down. Couldn't even update my Homburg Nation!

 

[Baron Kurtz]

That collection's looking a bit thin, mayserwegener!

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Good luck with that. Having been run off my bike 5 times in London traffic (all but 1 time, not my fault) I would never breath near a bike without a good quality modern helmet. It's certainly saved my life at least once.

I'm also a keen cyclist and they are the original riding safety helmet. It's the only kind of safety helmet I would ever consider wearing on a bike - otherwise I stick to flat caps.

 

[mayserwegener]

That collection's looking a bit thin, mayserwegener!

I am trying but holding steady.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Good luck with that. Having been run off my bike 5 times in London traffic (all but 1 time, not my fault) I would never breath near a bike without a good quality modern helmet. It's certainly saved my life at least once.

Well I've got to ask - why would anyone ride a bike in traffic? Everyone I know who does this has been "run over" at least once. A guy I knew was killed riding his bike on a main road last year. It all seems a bit nuts, with or without a bowler.

 

[besdor]

Probably the worst place that I've seen anyone try to ride a bike in traffic was Naples Italy. The drivers are truly insane and everyone is cutting each other off. Now I know why I never drive in Europe!

 

[Baron Kurtz]

When working as a cycle courier - as I was at the time - it's a bit of a necessity. And it's great exercise, and quicker than driving or taking public transport. At least in this city. So when I stopped the couriering I continue to ride in London. At least here the traffic is typically quite slow and so collisions typically relatively non-damaging. it's much worse in the country where these arseholes clip you at 65 mph … just ask benstephens.

The problem we have in this country is that there's basically nowhere you can ride where you're not in traffic. Had we a proper cycling infrastructure - like, let's say, Holland - where cyclists are entirely segregated from drivers, the situation would be much better than it is. But that would encourage people to ride bicycles, which - despite protestations to the contrary - is fundamentally anathema to the views of the political folks here (of any party, except the Greens) who don't want to do anything that would potentially reduce the consumption of petrolium and therefore endanger the donations they receive from this powerful lobby.

Well I've got to ask - why would anyone ride a bike in traffic? Everyone I know who does this has been "run over" at least once. A guy I knew was killed riding his bike on a main road last year. It all seems a bit nuts, with or without a bowler.

 

[Joshbru3]

1890 - 1893 Baird & Levi Brown Derby

I received this one this weekend and it is spectacular! I love these old brown derbies. You might be wondering how I narrowed the dates of this derby down to about a 3 year span……well…….I did a bit of research last night. In the auction, the seller did not show a picture of the manufacture tag located under the sweatband, so I was very surprised to find one with a manufactures name, location, and size. I searched for the name of the company in EVERY issue of The American Hatter and The Clothier and Furnisher publications on google. I found a wealth of information.

The company was started around 1886 as Cochran, Baird & Levi in Bethel, Conn.

It changed names and ownership several times and I was able to find information about each incarnation of the company. Here is what I found:

The company names and dates were taken right from articles in The American Hatter and The Clothier and Furnisher.

Cochran, Baird & Levi : 1886 - 1889

Baird & Levi : 1890 - 1893

Leach, Baird & Wiley: 1894 - 1896

Baird-Untiedt & Penfield Co: 1897 - 1900

Baird-Untiedt Co: 1901 - 1918

Fairbury Hat Co (Operating the Former Baird-Untiedt Co): 1919

John H. Baird Hat Co - 1920 - ?

 

[Joshbru3]

1890 - 1893 Baird & Levi Brown Derby (part 2)

 

[ofcoursemyhorse]

Absolutely gorgeous bowler. And for the age you couldnt ask for nicer condition.

I too just snagged a brown bowler this evening. Any idea on age Man of Kent?

 

[Brad Bowers]

Very cool Derby, Josh! From what I've found, the United Hatters of North America didn't exist until 1896, from the merger of two separate unions. The Union label tells me it's 1896+, which I realize doesn't jibe with the information you found.

Brad

 

[Joshbru3]

Very cool Derby, Josh! From what I've found, the United Hatters of North America didn't exist until 1896, from the merger of two separate unions. The Union label tells me it's 1896+, which I realize doesn't jibe with the information you found.

Brad

Thanks, Brad! I had thought about the union tag as well and tried to find some sort of info dating the tag to pre-1896. i was unable to find anything. The thing that has me baffled is that Leach, Baird & Wiley took ownership in 1894 of the company that was formally known as Baird & Levi due to change in partners and legal reasons. Would the new company still continue on using Baird & Levi tags in 1896+ even though they acquired the company several years earlier and changed names due to legal reasons?

 

[Brad Bowers]

Thanks, Brad! I had thought about the union tag as well and tried to find some sort of info dating the tag to pre-1896. i was unable to find anything. The thing that has me baffled is that Leach, Baird & Wiley took ownership in 1894 of the company that was formally known as Baird & Levi due to change in partners and legal reasons. Would the new company still continue on using Baird & Levi tags in 1896+ even though they acquired the company several years earlier and changed names due to legal reasons?

I really don't know. I can't imagine they would continue using the old tags, unless we are talking Company versus Brand. Perhaps Baird & Levi was the brand, though under different ownership. The idea of branding wasn't as strong in the nineteenth century as it would become shortly after 1900, so maybe that doesn't make sense, either. I'm not sure what to make of it.

Brad

 

[Joshbru3]

I really don't know. I can't imagine they would continue using the old tags, unless we are talking Company versus Brand. Perhaps Baird & Levi was the brand, though under different ownership. The idea of branding wasn't as strong in the nineteenth century as it would become shortly after 1900, so maybe that doesn't make sense, either. I'm not sure what to make of it.

Brad

I just found this article from a 1901 American Federalist Journal. It does state the 1896 date, but also says:

"It may be well to state, however, that in 1885 both national organizations met through the agency of their respective boards of directors, and adopted a union label, calling it the label of The United Hatters of North America. Since that time and up to 1896 both organizations jointly paid all of the expenses of the label."


Unless i'm reading this wrong, it appears that the United Hatters of North America label has actually existed since 1885 and was supported by the two separate organizations. It wasn't until 1896 that the two separate organizations became one and ceased using their old organization names and from then on was solely known as the United Hatters of North America.





http://books.google.com/books?id=HZpHAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA79&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U3NZcLWPtGLFk_bXaJpYGswurYVVA&ci=3%2C26%2C959%2C1453&edge=0

 

[Brad Bowers]

Very cool! That settles the date of your Derby, but could throw the dating of other hats into disarray, since they could be earlier than we thought. Great work, Josh.

Brad

 

[Huertecilla]

Seems I 'need' to read every page of this thread TOO!

Was invited by The Hat Lady to spend the weekend at the coast for o.a. things a sunday lunch she had organised.
There would be some interesting guests coming if I was she said so I went.
Boy was she right.
I will not bore you guys brain dead and just mention the hat surprises.

The one was a stunningly positive reaction to my outfit and the ' demand' I show it sunday too which receieved cheers and applause.

That leads to the second surprise which was the guest who had been the owner/managing director of a large hat manufacturing company in Soho, London for many decades.
His wife was over the moon so happy as her husband came to life with sparkling eyes talking about the hat making.
Long and interesting stories short:
- He immediately poored out detailed info about the felt my hat was made of, which animals furs were blended in and how he finish was called.
- He had provided the four straight top indy hats and had the task to replicate them for the second movie. The enigma about the blocks getting lost had a simple basis answer too. I was flabbergasted about it all. Of me hearing it directly from thé guys mouth.
- Allthough he had in the end liquidated when the hat making business had collapsed* because of chinese imports, he had gone to rediculous lengths/cost to haul two machines over to his villa at the coast.
Lastly, upon saying goodby, he not only invited me for a diner and hat talk at his house but;'I still have an 1850s bowler with low top and you can have that.'


* very soon after ww2 womens' hats became the main stay, the bread and butter of his company despite military contracts. As time progresses daily wear by ladies disappeared but the death knell of it all came when the ladies did not dig into their purses anymore for weddings and parties but bought a cheaper chinese lookalike for the day.
This echos the stories I have been told over here: like Isesa would have disappeared alltogether is not for the main stay of jewish traditional hats.

 

[ManofKent]

Josh - great little Derby, wonderful condition for it's age.

OfCourseMyHorse - nice find too. The GADunn on the sweat combined with the Dunn&Co label almost certainly puts it early to mid-50s