The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

[deadlyhandsome]

Apart from eBay & garage sales are there other places that sell vintage Borsalinos?. I’m looking for a 61 cm in a silver belly color.

Look at post 9,385 in this thread. This hat is at a hat shop being cleaned and having a new sweatband put in. I could be talked out of this hat when it returns, but you might not like the price…I know I wouldn’t like the price.

 

[Rmccamey]

One that style is on my Terry Jones wish list!

Look at post 9,385 in this thread. This hat is at a hat shop being cleaned and having a new sweatband put in. I could be talked out of this hat when it returns, but you might not like the price…I know I wouldn’t like the price.

 

[steur]

MGL and n size 5 ½ or 7 ¼ US. Some light moth damage bit nothing too bad. Moths have excellent taste in felt.

View attachment 566029 View attachment 566030 View attachment 566031 View attachment 566032 View attachment 566033 View attachment 566034 View attachment 566035 View attachment 566036 View attachment 566037 View attachment 566038

It's a beauty, Brent. These MGL Borsalinos are exceptional hats.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Another great old Borsalino. This time s about the perfect hat, except for the size.

 

[steur]

Another great old Borsalino. This time s about the perfect hat, except for the size.


View attachment 567713 View attachment 567714 View attachment 567715 View attachment 567716 View attachment 567717 View attachment 567718 View attachment 567719 View attachment 567720 View attachment 567721 View attachment 567722

Beautiful hat, Brent. Very strange it doesn't have a model name with this type of label. I would have guessed it was a Ludoela model, but the code left suggests otherwise. Ta Ludora is the model with the code that comes closest.

 

[Blare]

Beautiful hat, Brent. Very strange it doesn't have a model name with this type of label. I would have guessed it was a Ludoela model, but the code left suggests otherwise. Ta Ludora is the model with the code that comes closest.

Very similar to my Ta Ludora which coincidentally was sold at the same store The J.L.Hudson Company in Detroit. Brent’s is in much nicer shape though.

 

[harrytemp]

What is up with the horrible quality in the modern hats and I am talking about 2000-present? I have recently purchased a new to me hat and compared it to my older hats. My goodness it feels like a different brand. You can't even dry shape it without steam and the crown is stiff but the brim is thin. The brim is also shriveling up and I can get it out with steam but it still does the same thing. Also, when steaming the hair fibers are coming out all over the place. It almost feels like this hat was worn in the rain.

Do you think some hairspray or hat stiffener can get this back to its glory?

 

[Daniele Tanto]

What is up with the horrible quality in the modern hats and I am talking about 2000-present? I have recently purchased a new to me hat and compared it to my older hats. My goodness it feels like a different brand. You can't even dry shape it without steam and the crown is stiff but the brim is thin. The brim is also shriveling up and I can get it out with steam but it still does the same thing. Also, when steaming the hair fibers are coming out all over the place. It almost feels like this hat was worn in the rain.

Do you think some hairspray or hat stiffener can get this back to its glory?

It is the same brand selling to a different audience without this seeming like a justification.
The brand is what matters in fashion at the moment, certainly the final product has much less weight than the brand. Borsalino is selling to an audience that is at least 90% different from what is here in FL. If you still think, despite the disappointments, that Borsalino makes the best hats on the market, you are on the wrong path. Although, I repeat every time we talk about this topic, some rare beautiful hats are still on sale..
But I ask you: with the immense second-hand market in which Borsalino is an important part (it has produced and sold millions of hats) why do you insist on buying such disappointing hats?

 

[harrytemp]

It is the same brand selling to a different audience without this seeming like a justification.
The brand is what matters in fashion at the moment, certainly the final product has much less weight than the brand. Borsalino is selling to an audience that is at least 90% different from what is here in FL. If you still think, despite the disappointments, that Borsalino makes the best hats on the market, you are on the wrong path. Although, I repeat every time we talk about this topic, some rare beautiful hats are still on sale..
But I ask you: with the immense second-hand market in which Borsalino is an important part (it has produced and sold millions of hats) why do you insist on buying such disappointing hats?

Man needed hat to to do yard work in that's why I bought it.

I was thinking about using a 60's Borsa for yard work but I have a vintage Stetson for that till it finally falls apart.

Working around the house and running to the store hat.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

Man needed hat to to do yard work in that's why I bought it.

I was thinking about using a 60's Borsa for yard work but I have a vintage Stetson for that till it finally falls apart.

Working around the house and running to the store hat.

If you need a Borsalino to work in the yard, perhaps it is better to change brand and move towards sturdier and less elegant hats...

 

[Blare]

If you need a Borsalino to work in the yard, perhaps it is better to change brand and move towards sturdier and less elegant hats...

I have an old Borsalino relegated to that duty.. though I think you joked it was a veteran of the Punic wars

 

[Daniele Tanto]

I have an old Borsalino relegated to that duty.. though I think you joked it was a veteran of the Punic wars

Joe, I'm trying to speak, moderately since we're talking about hats, seriously.
I try to keep a thread alive with some technical information, some considerations and some news, often historical, regarding Italian hatmaking over the last, abundant, hundred years.
When we talk about Borsalino here it is often an alternation of lows and highs in the information that is requested or declared to be true. There are legends that have been handed down for "millennia" and are often the result of marketing aimed at making a star shine or decay, such as Borsalino has been and still is, even if now in a distant sky.
It is difficult to explain the events of a brand that has been alive since 1857 and has gone through immense glories and terrible vicissitudes. Let's keep in mind that Borsalino, together with Italian producers, was an important slice of Italian GDP until the 1960s. This starts from the early years of the last century just to be clear.
I recounted the phases of the change of ownership of Borsalino, publishing a lot of inside news, considering that I am Italian and I know the regulations of my homeland well. Stefan (Steur) sent here tons of material online regarding the history and technical details of Borsalino and so did the various "aficionados" of the Alessandria house.
We went on a "pilgrimage", Steve (mayserwegener) and me, to the production in Marengo Spineta with attached photographic report.
Well, having said that, I don't think a bit of joking was out of place, considering the joking tone of my interlocutor.
Not in the Punic Wars did the various fighting armies use other hats

 

[Blare]

Joe, I'm trying to speak, moderately since we're talking about hats, seriously.
I try to keep a thread alive with some technical information, some considerations and some news, often historical, regarding Italian hatmaking over the last, abundant, hundred years.
When we talk about Borsalino here it is often an alternation of lows and highs in the information that is requested or declared to be true. There are legends that have been handed down for "millennia" and are often the result of marketing aimed at making a star shine or decay, such as Borsalino has been and still is, even if now in a distant sky.
It is difficult to explain the events of a brand that has been alive since 1857 and has gone through immense glories and terrible vicissitudes. Let's keep in mind that Borsalino, together with Italian producers, was an important slice of Italian GDP until the 1960s. This starts from the early years of the last century just to be clear.
I recounted the phases of the change of ownership of Borsalino, publishing a lot of inside news, considering that I am Italian and I know the regulations of my homeland well. Stefan (Steur) sent here tons of material online regarding the history and technical details of Borsalino and so did the various "aficionados" of the Alessandria house.
We went on a "pilgrimage", Steve (mayserwegener) and me, to the production in Marengo Spineta with attached photographic report.
Well, having said that, I don't think a bit of joking was out of place, considering the joking tone of my interlocutor.
Not in the Punic Wars did the various fighting armies use other hats

In case there was any confusion… I did perceive your comment as fun banter…. my response was entirely joking in every way. I was poking fun at myself for the fact I do use that hat for that purpose.

I seriously appreciate the work and effort yourself, Stefan and others do to spread knowledge and to correct misperceptions about Borsalino and other Italian and European hat manufacturers of that past nearly two centuries .

I also appreciate good banter and back and forth joking. Always intended in good spirit.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

In case there was any confusion… I did perceive your comment as fun banter…. my response was entirely joking in every way. I was poking fun at myself for the fact I do use that hat for that purpose.

I seriously appreciate the work and effort yourself, Stefan and others do to spread knowledge and to correct misperceptions about Borsalino and other Italian and European hat manufacturers of that past nearly two centuries .

I also appreciate good banter and back and forth joking. Always intended in good spirit.

No confusion Joe, at all.
I perfectly understood the joking tone of your response.
Maybe I let the "Borsalino syndrome" take me too seriously, but I still fell for it. Too many words.
I swore to cheerfully answer all the "legends with Borsalino as the protagonist", but tonight I didn't succeed.
I appreciate your sense of humor and the wit you use to make simple things that are presented and discussed as complicated.
Have a good Saturday and when you read me too emphatic, remind me that it's always a good thing to remember first the simplicity

 

[steur]

I promised you a post with some additional thoughts on the 1912 Borsalino catalog I posted two weeks ago.

Here in full:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/the-borsalino-brotherhood.13133/post-3051914

Why a catalog?
They could have settled for a much cheaper option, like folders or leaflets, but they didn't. So why was that? My thoughts are that this has to do with the fierce competition they were facing around this time with the other Borsalino. GB Borsalino fu Lazzaro was founded in 1906 and had published their catalog in 1909.

The date of that catalog, that is posted here:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/books-about-20th-century-mens-hats.107455/post-2913605
was uncertain, but I found a reference to it in a footnote in Guido Barberis' Borsalino book. He has it dated to 1909 (Guido Barberis Borsalino, footnote 49 page 315). This likely triggered the Antica Casa to follow with their own. This wasn't unusual, because the two competitors were trying to outdo eachother with marketing campaigns from the start, employing the best Italian illustrators for their posters and advertising, like Dudovich, Simonnetti and Boccasile (among others).
It's easy to see how similar these publications are, both in content (GB Borsalino dedicated a lot of pages to their factory setup, which are not to be found in the Borsalino catalog - likely they felt they didn't need it) down to the string binding.

Styles
We can lay the myth to rest that the early part of the 20th century knew only a limited number of styles and we can safely take a guess as to the age of a hat based on its style and dispell a certain age of a hat based on that same style. The GB Borsalino fu Lazzaro catalogue lists a more than respectable 112 styles or models. They are dwarfed however by Borsalino with a whopping 240 styles or models. There are 40 different bowler models alone!
So what was on the missing pages? We can never be sure of course, unless we find another on of these, but what we don't see on these pages may well have been there. There are no top-hats or ascots to be found and we can be sure Borsalino made those. There are to my eye less short brimmed high crowned fedoras or trilbies in the catalog on display then one would expect. This is all speculation of course.

Qualities
There is no mention of qualities at all. All the superlatives and designations they would use on their hats do not get a mention here. So, no qualitá superiore, extra superiore, speciale, finissima, suprema or what have you. It has been noted before that the qualities were more of a marketing thing than anything else. There's no doubt Borsalino used a variety of mixes for their felts, as all the manufacturers did, but there didn't seem to be an idea to use that as a marketing tool back then.

Colours
A bit of a surprise here. Twenty colours are listed in the catalog, which is far less than I would have expected from Borsalino, which we know produced hundreds of them. Most of them are new, but a few we've seen variations of (banano instead of banana, radio instead of rodio). Palladio is the only one that has been in use unchanged. It could have something to do with changes in the way the colouring was done over time; other and newer chemicals maybe?
These are the colours listed:
Azzuré
Radio
Corteccia
Mosella
Palladio
Avana
Albione
Misto Rovigno peloso
Rovo Peloso
Misto Siepe peloso
Elleno
Ambrone
Bleu
Guinea
Pirite
Banano
Elefante
Virginia
Lavagna
Misto Lama peloso

Bowlers
As a closing remark it struck me that all the bowlers are pictured with contrasting binding. It must have been done to present a clearer picture as to what the hats did look like rather than picture them in black with black ribbon and brim binding. Makes sense.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

Let's talk about Borsalino and a gamble that didn't go entirely well.
Introduced on the market as a men's hat size 59 centimeters and considering the color and shape I was enchanted

I have bought very few hats of this color, although a few have been of above average quality and now live in the United States

Upon arrival I understood that the size was a dream generated by Borsalino's fervent mind

Borsalino Rain Proof Line nominally size 59, but in reality it is between 56 and 57. Felt is thin and very light.

Second not complete hazard is the ribbon with the bow in in the women's position

The measurements of the "Cream" Borsalino: curled brims at 5 cm. the ribbon is at 3.5 cm and the open crown is 12.5 cm.. Very nice and rare, for the color and shape of a "Lord hats"

The shape and color of the felt remains to make it a good gift for those who want to be kind to their loved one.

 

[steur]

Zenith fedora in brown. Liner and sweatband say so, as do both the labels: this one is a sub-brand of Borsalino. Fairly stiff felt (more claylike), but with a very nice smooth hand. Probably not made by Borsalino themselves. Cervo comes to mind as a possible maker.
Size 56 with the raw edge brim at 5,4cm an the crown at 10,5cm at the center dent.

 

[Francesco1992]

Hello everyone! Hope you all are good.

Today I am posting here one of the latest finds which I consider one of the most valuable finds of this last period.
I want to show one of two Borsalino Antica Casa that came together in my hands: the one I am going to show is the black one, the other (the brown one) will come as a gift for next Christmas (photos will come after Christmas).
Both hats are in almost PERFECT condition, having been preserved very well for decades. They are both size 6 French punti (59cm, so very "wearable" for my size 59 also) and have also a very interesting story to tell.
They have been bought from a man from Genova, the grandfather of the old lady that sold them, that was born in 1880 and of which I have the luck to have a photo sent by the owner (I will ask the lady if she gives me permission to show it). He was a wood artist and very talented and capable furniture craftsman; towards his 20 years of age he got married with a beautiful lady that gave him 3 or 4 children; because of that and also because of all the customers that did not pay his work in time, he had to change his job and become a Public Railways employee, assuring him to have the possibility to economically maintain his family.
He died in 1943 with 63 years of age before the birth of the owner that told me the story.
As for the hat I am posting, I have more than one clue that make me suspect about the fact that these Borsalinos could have made and bought before 1920 (I hope you will help me understand if I am right or not): The general shape of the hat, the type of ribbon, the liner and the type of separate cell label type that also shows a very low serial number on both hats, which interestingly have been written by the same person for both hats' cells.
Another interesting fact is that these 2 hats show two big golden "X" each, one on the liner and one on the sweatband, engraved as if the Borsalino House had made them. The liner and the sweatband are original but aren't coming from the same hat shop. I really don't know what it could mean because it is the first time I see such a thing on a so old hat.
Very very proud and happy of this purchase (I will keep them among my absolutely favorite hats: I feel like having found a real treasure), I am posting the first black one here for you with a great joy, hoping you will love them as I do!
Thanks a lot in advance and see you soon.

best,

Francesco

 

[Rmccamey]

It appears you have done a fine job capturing these old hats. Having more specifics of the history of a hat makes them all the more special. Congratulations.

Hello everyone! Hope you all are good.

Today I am posting here one of the latest finds which I consider one of the most valuable finds of this last period.
I want to show one of two Borsalino Antica Casa that came together in my hands: the one I am going to show is the black one, the other (the brown one) will come as a gift for next Christmas (photos will come after Christmas).
Both hats are in almost PERFECT condition, having been preserved very well for decades. They are both size 6 French punti (59cm, so very "wearable" for my size 59 also) and have also a very interesting story to tell.
They have been bought from a man from Genova, the grandfather of the old lady that sold them, that was born in 1880 and of which I have the luck to have a photo sent by the owner (I will ask the lady if she gives me permission to show it). He was a wood artist and very talented and capable furniture craftsman; towards his 20 years of age he got married with a beautiful lady that gave him 3 or 4 children; because of that and also because of all the customers that did not pay his work in time, he had to change his job and become a Public Railways employee, assuring him to have the possibility to economically maintain his family.
He died in 1943 with 63 years of age before the birth of the owner that told me the story.
As for the hat I am posting, I have more than one clue that make me suspect about the fact that these Borsalinos could have made and bought before 1920 (I hope you will help me understand if I am right or not): The general shape of the hat, the type of ribbon, the liner and the type of separate cell label type that also shows a very low serial number on both hats, which interestingly have been written by the same person for both hats' cells.
Another interesting fact is that these 2 hats show two big golden "X" each, one on the liner and one on the sweatband, engraved as if the Borsalino House had made them. The liner and the sweatband are original but aren't coming from the same hat shop. I really don't know what it could mean because it is the first time I see such a thing on a so old hat.
Very very proud and happy of this purchase (I will keep them among my absolutely favorite hats: I feel like having found a real treasure), I am posting the first black one here for you with a great joy, hoping you will love them as I do!
Thanks a lot in advance and see you soon.

best,

Francesco

 

[steur]

Hello everyone! Hope you all are good.

Today I am posting here one of the latest finds which I consider one of the most valuable finds of this last period.
I want to show one of two Borsalino Antica Casa that came together in my hands: the one I am going to show is the black one, the other (the brown one) will come as a gift for next Christmas (photos will come after Christmas).
Both hats are in almost PERFECT condition, having been preserved very well for decades. They are both size 6 French punti (59cm, so very "wearable" for my size 59 also) and have also a very interesting story to tell.
They have been bought from a man from Genova, the grandfather of the old lady that sold them, that was born in 1880 and of which I have the luck to have a photo sent by the owner (I will ask the lady if she gives me permission to show it). He was a wood artist and very talented and capable furniture craftsman; towards his 20 years of age he got married with a beautiful lady that gave him 3 or 4 children; because of that and also because of all the customers that did not pay his work in time, he had to change his job and become a Public Railways employee, assuring him to have the possibility to economically maintain his family.
He died in 1943 with 63 years of age before the birth of the owner that told me the story.
As for the hat I am posting, I have more than one clue that make me suspect about the fact that these Borsalinos could have made and bought before 1920 (I hope you will help me understand if I am right or not): The general shape of the hat, the type of ribbon, the liner and the type of separate cell label type that also shows a very low serial number on both hats, which interestingly have been written by the same person for both hats' cells.
Another interesting fact is that these 2 hats show two big golden "X" each, one on the liner and one on the sweatband, engraved as if the Borsalino House had made them. The liner and the sweatband are original but aren't coming from the same hat shop. I really don't know what it could mean because it is the first time I see such a thing on a so old hat.
Very very proud and happy of this purchase (I will keep them among my absolutely favorite hats: I feel like having found a real treasure), I am posting the first black one here for you with a great joy, hoping you will love them as I do!
Thanks a lot in advance and see you soon.

best,

Francesco

Always a pleasure to see you posting one of your special finds, Francesco and you do not disappoint this time. I already had the model name Ledasca in the database, so we've must have seen one before. Still it's a wonderful find, with one of the very early cell type labels. The different sweatband and liner and gold coloured crosses are a mystery to me. If they were rejects that didn't make it past quality control then why use them anyway and why use gold to cross out the name?
Can't wait to see the other one.