Mighty44
Call Me a Cab
- Messages
- 2,008
Killer hat…
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The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD
- Thread starter Dakota Ellison
- Start date
So close...
Fantastic hat, Brent and a cool find.
Another beauty. Could be a Savoy model; same finishing and also felted edge.
Hey everyone!
I have a Borsalino hat which I could do with some help with.
I found it at the bottom of a box in a charity shop
I have had to take out the lining and clean it as there was some mildew developing.
It has a code under the lining, does anyone know what it means please?
The hat needs some TLC I think as it’s a little misshapen.
Any info gratefully received, thanks!
I have a Borsalino hat which I could do with some help with.
I found it at the bottom of a box in a charity shop
I have had to take out the lining and clean it as there was some mildew developing.
It has a code under the lining, does anyone know what it means please?
The hat needs some TLC I think as it’s a little misshapen.
Any info gratefully received, thanks!
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- Messages
- 19,001
- Location
- Central California
- Messages
- 19,001
- Location
- Central California
This is a fairly modern hat and looks identical to my current production Borsalinos. It’s a French Point/Punti size 5 ½ which is nominally a US size 7 ¼. It’s been my experience that these hats tend to run small.
Nice proportions and colors.
Rmccamey
I'll Lock Up
- Messages
- 5,861
- Location
- Central Texas
It's all you, brother. I see a new fashion trend for 2023!
- Messages
- 19,001
- Location
- Central California
I recently told my wife I was thinking about buying a kilt to wear this summer. I think she would have the same reaction seeing me in this size 7 hat.
- Messages
- 11,713
“Well THATS another fine mess you’ve gotten us in!”
- Messages
- 19,001
- Location
- Central California
I came this close to buying a kilt two weeks ago when I was on the hunt for hats. I'm sure I'll regret it at some point, but I decided not to go for it.I recently told my wife I was thinking about buying a kilt to wear this summer. I think she would have the same reaction seeing me in this size 7 hat.
Believe it or believe it not, but a kilt is on my bucket list to buy before I die list.
I think I, you, Stefan, and Brent @deadlyhandsome should just go for it.
I bet others on the FL would go for it, too
- Messages
- 19,001
- Location
- Central California
Believe it or believe it not, but a kilt is on my bucket list to buy before I die list.
I think I, you, Stefan, and Brent @deadlyhandsome should just go for it.
I bet others on the FL would go for it, too
Do you go traditional or do you go for a modern utility design?
Traditional, please
- Messages
- 19,001
- Location
- Central California
Traditional, please
A traditionalist on this site? I’m shocked!
Maybe my wife will warm to it?
They do have advantages so they say and Brent McNatly sounds alright to me! The Scots already have a Sturgeon in charge, so there is a chance for me...A traditionalist on this site? I’m shocked!
Maybe my wife will warm to it?
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Rmccamey
I'll Lock Up
- Messages
- 5,861
- Location
- Central Texas
Ha. I knew there was a Scot in there somewhere! Let's have a wee dram for McNatly.
They do have advantages so they say and Brent McNatly sounds alright to me! The Scots already have a Sturgeon in charge, so there is a chance for me...
Here's something to chew a bit on. This is a discussion forum after all. I've been looking at some Borsalino bowlers lately, mainly because they do pop up here and there and because there are more older hats among these than we tend to see with fedoras. We have a fair approximation dating Borsalino hats with the label method, but I've been looking at the sweatband logos to see if these are also an indication of the age of the hats.
Here's a theory I would like to present to the brotherhood to be peer-reviewed
This post came about with input from our resident Italian hat-expert, Daniele @Daniele Tanto.
So far I can distinguish three different sweatband logos, not counting the American market ones and the ones that were used for specialty felts, like nutria.
The oldest sweatband logo I think is the large more horizontal one without the “antica casa” emblem next to it (it is found separate on the sweatband).
Next came the familiar logo, only smaller in size and with crisp, sharp lines.
This is the imprint on the other side of the sweatband of the same hat. Note the mention of the Societa Anonima, which was established in 1906. Also note the textured leather, which we tend to see on the early hats.
Finally they settled on the larger, angled logo with the emblem on the side.
The company started using their logos and imprints in earnest in 1910 with the 1910 International Universal Exposition in Brussels. The familiar logos used on the liners are on display below in this print from the catalogue of this exposition.
There are several caveats to be made. The bowler hat for social and economic reasons has never had great success in Italy, even if it has been borrowed in its uses, especially in politics since the early twentieth century with great development after the First World War. Add that in anti-English politics, especially in the 1930s, the bowler hat became synonymous with plutocratic bourgeois, therefore English or French. The regime wears pure fantasy military-style hats to show a fascist aesthetic.
Borsalino's marketing policy greatly affects the aesthetics of logos and brands. Basically as with the fedoras and other hats it was more or less up to the retailer to decide what the finishing of the hats should look like, including logos and quality designations. If that was also the case this early on is uncertain, but not unlikely. We know very well that some shops of great sales of their hats could boast of constructive peculiarities that other shops did not have.
Borsalino's policy also has always been to get the most out of any unfinished work, keeping those unsold items around for perhaps a later sell. Therefore hats that had been standing still for years for finishing were finished or dismantled to take on another position in marketing of the company. It happens that you have in your hands Borsalino hats made many years before and which arrived on the market with new linings and sweatbands to adapt them to the current market.
Often the finishes refer a lot to the time in which the hat was built, see for example one of the sweatbands with designs on the leather, or the linings put in an extremely artisanal way. Keep in mind that after the war the bowler hat in Italy is an old-fashioned hat and those built starting from the 1950s are simple and very spartan, unless they are intended for particular high-class shops that serve special customers. Another factor to be taken into due consideration is the pre and post second world war phase. The Borsalino factory had been almost totally converted to military production starting in 1940, then it was bombed and the scarcity of raw materials to build a hat in post-war Italy considerably reduced the number of hats built.
Identifying the logos as the age of construction can be a viable path, always keeping in mind Borsalino's ability to "reinvent" hats as needed. Last consideration: in Italy some individual hatters have built bowler hats for those customers who did not want or could afford or wait for Borsalino production.
Very few hats are actually dated and the sampling is thin. Also, it would be interesting to see a Borsalino made before 1910, just to see how those hats were marked.
What says the brotherhood?
Here's a theory I would like to present to the brotherhood to be peer-reviewed
This post came about with input from our resident Italian hat-expert, Daniele @Daniele Tanto.
So far I can distinguish three different sweatband logos, not counting the American market ones and the ones that were used for specialty felts, like nutria.
The oldest sweatband logo I think is the large more horizontal one without the “antica casa” emblem next to it (it is found separate on the sweatband).
Next came the familiar logo, only smaller in size and with crisp, sharp lines.
This is the imprint on the other side of the sweatband of the same hat. Note the mention of the Societa Anonima, which was established in 1906. Also note the textured leather, which we tend to see on the early hats.
Finally they settled on the larger, angled logo with the emblem on the side.
The company started using their logos and imprints in earnest in 1910 with the 1910 International Universal Exposition in Brussels. The familiar logos used on the liners are on display below in this print from the catalogue of this exposition.
There are several caveats to be made. The bowler hat for social and economic reasons has never had great success in Italy, even if it has been borrowed in its uses, especially in politics since the early twentieth century with great development after the First World War. Add that in anti-English politics, especially in the 1930s, the bowler hat became synonymous with plutocratic bourgeois, therefore English or French. The regime wears pure fantasy military-style hats to show a fascist aesthetic.
Borsalino's marketing policy greatly affects the aesthetics of logos and brands. Basically as with the fedoras and other hats it was more or less up to the retailer to decide what the finishing of the hats should look like, including logos and quality designations. If that was also the case this early on is uncertain, but not unlikely. We know very well that some shops of great sales of their hats could boast of constructive peculiarities that other shops did not have.
Borsalino's policy also has always been to get the most out of any unfinished work, keeping those unsold items around for perhaps a later sell. Therefore hats that had been standing still for years for finishing were finished or dismantled to take on another position in marketing of the company. It happens that you have in your hands Borsalino hats made many years before and which arrived on the market with new linings and sweatbands to adapt them to the current market.
Often the finishes refer a lot to the time in which the hat was built, see for example one of the sweatbands with designs on the leather, or the linings put in an extremely artisanal way. Keep in mind that after the war the bowler hat in Italy is an old-fashioned hat and those built starting from the 1950s are simple and very spartan, unless they are intended for particular high-class shops that serve special customers. Another factor to be taken into due consideration is the pre and post second world war phase. The Borsalino factory had been almost totally converted to military production starting in 1940, then it was bombed and the scarcity of raw materials to build a hat in post-war Italy considerably reduced the number of hats built.
Identifying the logos as the age of construction can be a viable path, always keeping in mind Borsalino's ability to "reinvent" hats as needed. Last consideration: in Italy some individual hatters have built bowler hats for those customers who did not want or could afford or wait for Borsalino production.
Very few hats are actually dated and the sampling is thin. Also, it would be interesting to see a Borsalino made before 1910, just to see how those hats were marked.
What says the brotherhood?
- Messages
- 15,083
- Location
- Buffalo, NY
A noble experiment worth exploring further. Interesting to see the sweatbands with fine crosshatch pattern - similar to certain (very durable and long lasting) Stetson Fray sweatbands from the early 20th century.
Thanks, Alan. As I've learned it's a hypothesis (not a theory
). All we need now is a ton of data to see if it holds any merit. Let's bring out the truckloads of old Borsalinos.
