The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

[rlk]

Do you know of any dated examples?

Slightly stiff shiny liners in most older hats that are more transparent and not yellow like the "Onionskin" are probably cellophane. Definitely in Borsalino of various ages, Portis and some Stetsons. Its more biodegradable than modern polyethylene and polyester so many disappear with heavy use and exposure. More about CELLOPHANE:http://www.stiftungbrandenberger.ch/cello_e.htm

 

[carouselvic]

I know all about oil skin and cellophane, that wasn't what I asked. Do you have any dated examples? Ads or anything else?

 

[rlk]

I know all about oil skin and cellophane, that wasn't what I asked. Do you have any dated examples? Ads or anything else?

What would you date this Lord's Hat with the ribbon attached by basting at the top edge?

Hats w/ positive dating 1953 Habig with similar tip protection. 1964 Stetson might be. OPS label Portis probably. Another Borsalino family said was 50 years old. Don't have a lot of pre WWII hats w/ liner protection and/or certain dating. Hard to find an ad for uses of cellophane in textiles on a retail basis.

 

[rlk]

Unfortunately, I just took the hat out to show more closely and the CELLOPHANE shattered a bit, why we don't see a lot of old cellophane. Once the hat was exposed again it didn't maintain the pristine quality.

 

[carouselvic]

Hats w/ positive dating 1953 Habig with similar tip protection. 1964 Stetson might be. OPS label Portis probably. Another Borsalino family said was 50 years old. Don't have a lot of pre WWII hats w/ liner protection and/or certain dating. Hard to find an ad for uses of cellophane in textiles on a retail basis.

These Bulgarian Borsalinos have been sold on ebay for years. I never believed their 30's date and a 40's date I find to be a complete impossibility, very late 40's maybe. You have German made eulan, plastic liner in an Italian hat, going to a Bulgarian retailer. All members of the Axis powers. They were sure playing fast and loose with their petroleum. It defies logic, IMHO.

 

[rlk]

These Bulgarian Borsalinos have been sold on ebay for years. I never believed their 30's date and a 40's date I find to be a complete impossibility, very late 40's maybe. You have German made eulan, plastic liner in an Italian hat, going to a Bulgarian retailer. All members of the Axis powers. They were sure playing fast and loose with their petroleum. It defies logic, IMHO.

I guarantee its cellophane. Very common for German Austrian and Italian Hats of various vintages check Homburg Thread and German Thread for more. You are supporting pre-War by your observations.
I think we've exhausted this for now.

 

[carouselvic]

I guarantee its cellophane. Very common for German Austrian and Italian Hats of various vintages check Homburg Thread and German Thread for more. You are supporting pre-War by your observations.
I think we've exhausted this for now.

I use the term plastic the same as cellophane, I know they are different. I am in no way supporting pre-war in anyway shape or form. We will have exhausted this when you can produce at least one dated example.

 

[rlk]

I use the term plastic the same as cellophane, I know they are different. I am in no way supporting pre-war in anyway shape or form. We will have exhausted this when you can produce at least one dated example.

Story if you choose to believe it:http://www.tangogigolotienda.com/servlet/the-13/Vintage-Silver-Gray-Borsalino/Detail

One last review.
TO CLARIFY--PRE-WAR MEANS PRE-ALLIED INVASION AND ACTIVE WAR IN THE AREA(ITALY + BULGARIA) Bulgaria joined Axis 3/41 Declared war on US/GB 12/41 Sofia bombed after that. Bulgaria during WWII details:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Bulgaria_during_World_War_II
For your reasons and others the 1940's are very unlikely(1940-1941 is possible), War conditions,shortages, Italy invaded by Allies in 1943, and the mess of reconstruction and later Communist Bloc dominance.

I've observed many and none appeared to be in a style that precluded the pre-war period. No wide(over 2-1/2")brims, low crowns, multi-colored labels, etc.

Mostly raw-edge brims some with pencil curl

Many Homburgs(These may have ribbon on edge)

The sweatbands are wide(2"+) thick high quality and most have the ribbon at rear and taped seam seen in other period hats. Later Borsalino usually have unreeded sweatbands. The reed fabric is also consistent with early hats.

The perforated Borsalino stamps have the script on the left edge and other qualities and similar numbers to period hats.

Some(I can't see them all) have the ribbons attached with wide visible external stitches along the top edge, also common with that period of hat.

Pleated liner around tip.
When there is liner protection it has been onion skin, or cellophane(when clear)I can send you a sample since mine has now broken.

Eulan Bayer Tag:1922 intro
Cellophane:1912 intro(not a petroleum product)
Both products were more popular in their early years.

How many hats have dates hanging from them? I have well over 50 and only 4 have actual decipherable dates on them.
I haven't heard any reason why they cannot be.
What qualities would make you think they were 1950's or newer(and sold in isolated Communist Bulgaria).

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

I'll wade into these troubled waters just to share that I own two of the Zlateff Borsalinos. The blue Trionfo is amazingly lightweight.

I am biased toward wanting to believe they are '30s hats but have no proof. The wide leather sweatbands do point to older eras as do other details brought up by rlk. However, the reeded sweatband is always a point which gives traction to the idea that they are of more recent vintage. In any event, the style and quality would have been right at home in any part of the '30s - and the raw edge brims commonly found on these Bulgarian 'stash' hats was popular in that decade giving way later to bound brims and other treatments.

This Trionfo has very old quality but seems as though it must have been stored and kept from developing any 'mileage' on it:

This brown one has less of a 'new' feel to it. A very, very old vibe. It also has that loooong stitching trick around the top of a portion of the ribbon, and just a early era set of proportions. Not sure what any of that's worth.

 

[rlk]

A couple more from Zlateff

Borsalino

Cervo Bantam

However, the reeded sweatband is always a point which gives traction to the idea that they are of more recent vintage.

This may actually argue for age since most later verified Borsalino's have unreeded sweatbands. The reed fabric is of an early type(no plastic or coating). Early derbies, at least have reeded sweatbands(for what its worth).

 

[rlk]

From an unnamed source

 

[rlk]

 

[rlk]

ZENIT

Zenit and Borsalino Italian ads of the 1920's-1930's, the last two are 1943 and 1941 Allied Invasion of Italy was 1943.

 

[cookie]

I'll wade into these troubled waters just to share that I own two of the Zlateff Borsalinos. The blue Trionfo is amazingly lightweight.
This Trionfo has very old quality but seems as though it must have been stored and kept from developing any 'mileage' on it:

I thought we'd agreed you were never going to post that hat again??:rage: :rage:

Especially as I bought a Navy Blue Cappeline hood the other day to have made up.....

 

[mayserwegener]

Story if you choose to believe it:http://www.tangogigolotienda.com/servlet/the-13/Vintage-Silver-Gray-Borsalino/Detail

One last review.
TO CLARIFY--PRE-WAR MEANS PRE-ALLIED INVASION AND ACTIVE WAR IN THE AREA(ITALY + BULGARIA) Bulgaria joined Axis 3/41 Declared war on US/GB 12/41 Sofia bombed after that. Bulgaria during WWII details:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Bulgaria_during_World_War_II
For your reasons and others the 1940's are very unlikely(1940-1941 is possible), War conditions,shortages, Italy invaded by Allies in 1943, and the mess of reconstruction and later Communist Bloc dominance.

I've observed many and none appeared to be in a style that precluded the pre-war period. No wide(over 2-1/2")brims, low crowns, multi-colored labels, etc.

Mostly raw-edge brims some with pencil curl

Many Homburgs(These may have ribbon on edge)

The sweatbands are wide(2"+) thick high quality and most have the ribbon at rear and taped seam seen in other period hats. Later Borsalino usually have unreeded sweatbands. The reed fabric is also consistent with early hats.

The perforated Borsalino stamps have the script on the left edge and other qualities and similar numbers to period hats.

Some(I can't see them all) have the ribbons attached with wide visible external stitches along the top edge, also common with that period of hat.

Pleated liner around tip.
When there is liner protection it has been onion skin, or cellophane(when clear)I can send you a sample since mine has now broken.

Eulan Bayer Tag:1922 intro
Cellophane:1912 intro(not a petroleum product)
Both products were more popular in their early years.

How many hats have dates hanging from them? I have well over 50 and only 4 have actual decipherable dates on them.
I haven't heard any reason why they cannot be.
What qualities would make you think they were 1950's or newer(and sold in isolated Communist Bulgaria).

I do have a Habig (Vienna, Austria) Homburg that has a date stamp on the sweat of November 29, 1940. I have a couple of others from this early war period. I think your observations are spot on.

Here is my Zlateff Bulgarian Borsalino. I am thinking late 1930s very early 40s. It looks very similar to the hats in the last two Borsalino ads you posted.

It has the Eulan Bayer tag too.

Also my Hückel Superior is from Bulgaria. It doesn't have the Zlateff stamp but that is probably the source.

This hat is definitely 1938-45 (my guess 1938-43) because the hat is marked "Made in Germany" and Johann Hückel´s Söhne was located in Novy Jicin Czechoslovakia (before WWI Neutitschein, Austria). Novy Jicin is located in Sudetenland which was made part of Germany 1938-45. Post 1945 Johann Hückel´s Söhne was nationalized as TONAK (Czechoslovakia).

 

[Mario]

Mayserwegener! Didn't we agree that you stop posting photos of that Hückel Superior? See? There I went and drooled on my keyboard again!

Love that black Borso - beautiful hat! :eusa_clap

 

[High Pockets]

I've been waiting for this!!

"Gentleman, with these photos I respectfully request permission to submit my application to the Brotherhood."

The Borsalino that Douglas was kind enough to offer to sell to one of us finaly got back from Graham today,......Optimo has all of my re-build business from now on!!!!

And last but not least; The Ugly Mug Shot:

 

[Garrett]

I say we let High Pockets into the brotherhood. What say you?

 

[jimmy the lid]

I'll second the nomination...

Cheers,
JtL

 

[DOUGLAS]

And last but not least; The Ugly Mug Shot:

Well done! You look sharp as a knife.