The 7 year itch

[Jerekson]

There was some talk on COW a long, long time ago...Mr. Delk apparently was doing some research into the subject while perfecting his felt treatments, and he began to believe that a hat would be theoretically "taper-proof" after 7 years.

Apparently, it takes modern felt about 7 years to "die". Therefore, it would no longer seek it's original cone shape and would no longer taper.

This is all serving from memory of a COW sweep I did about a year ago. So I doubt I have my facts straight. But the point remains;

After 7 years, will a hat be rendered un-taper-able?

 

[fatwoul]

Of course I'm not questioning Mr Delk's extensive experience, but I would imagine that it would depend on a large number of factors, including but not limited to:

The type/blend of felt - beaver, rabbit, nutria, mixture of all or some of these, etc.

How often the hat is worn - The constant albeit subtle flexing of the base of the crown as the hat is taken on and off may seem slight, but after 7 years of constant wear could be more significant.

What conditions the hat is exposed to - a hat that is only worn on crisp, winter days might have a different "dying time" to a hat that is constantly worn in driving rain or scorching desert sun. Humidity and temperature are also cited around here as factors in the correct storage of hats when not being worn.

How often it is reshaped - if a hat is regularly reshaped by its owner (either as a response to the effects of weather or just because they want new styles), that would surely have a greater effect than someone who has shaped their hat once and left it that way.

How often it is reblocked - I would imagine this is the single most significant of the factors I could think of. A hat that is annually reblocked to the preferred shape would, I imagine, be persuaded to die sooner than one which has never been reblocked.

All this is purely based on my observations having been around FL, and I don't really have any experience at all. My Fed Dlx is showing signs of taper, though. lol

 

[Art Fawcett]

WOW..Fatwoul, you've been doing your homework!!! All of your points are correct and I have no idea what conditions Steve was considering, but I would not want to argue his point as conditions are everything.

 

[fatwoul]

Haha thanks Art. Actually, I put it down to my science background. I take in variables without even noticing. Good to know I did well though, especially coming from the likes of Mr Fawcett himself.

 

[deanglen]

Fatwoul's avatar says it all!








dean

 

[Jerekson]

Like I said, there's a good chance that I am completely mistaken, being as this whole theory is serving only from memory of a year or two ago.

Fats, you are indeed a smart one. All of those points are valid, and need to be taken into consideration, I'm sure.

But still, one needs to wonder why our vintage hats don't taper...

 

[BrotherBob]

What????

Jeebus.

Hats die?

OK, I give up.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

"live" vs. "dead" felt (neither term literal); vintage vs. new felt. Ooooh i feel we've been here before, and it didn't end well.

bk

 

[Feraud]

But still, one needs to wonder why our vintage hats don't taper...

..or at the least tapers less. In the past there were hatters who provided reblocking so it stands to reason this was a required service.

My own observation is vintage hats hold up better than new but there are quite a few factors that can be argued either way in this statement.

 

[feltfan]

..or at the least tapers less. In the past there were hatters who provided reblocking so it stands to reason this was a required service.

Do you have any reason to believe that reblocking was offered
to address tapering? I have never seen mention of this problem
in any vintage articles or ads or discussions of vintage hats.
Reblocking changed the shape of the hat aesthetically, but apparently
not to address a taper problem, and was part of the
cleaning process.

If hats in the old days tapered, we'd see a lot of tapered
vintage hats for sale. We don't.

Bottom line is, the felt was made differently then.
Mind you, it seems that a hat from Art (not speaking
from personal experience yet) won't taper like a new
Stetson fedora, so better felt can still be made. Is it
the equal of a pre-1960 felt? I don't know.

 

[Feraud]

I assume reblocking was offered to remedy any number of issues including taper. I imagine owning one or two hats for a number of years and exposing it to the elements and physical handling will take its toll on any hat.

Do vintage hats not taper?

 

[Art Fawcett]

Oh gosh

do we really want to start this again? OK, my .02. The basic felting process hasn't changed since the beginning of time, but chemicals have. Mercury, I'm sure, had alot to do with the tightness of the process but obviously, that's changed to other chemicals for the same carroting. I believe that in daily used hats, tapering DID occur but the hats were worn, as meant to be, and thrown away in the normal process of living. The ones that survive today were not worn as much or taken better care of ( like the unappreciated Christmas tie) and thus were saved from the abuse. I believe that because of this, the hat is able to retain it's natural "memory" to a higher degree. One other factor is that until the Indy fanaticism, taper was just expected and was dealt with as a normal thing. When it became too much for the owners liking, it was just taken to the local hat shop and reblocked. Only after the sometimes overboard ideas trying to emulate a film did this even become an issue.
I agree that the felting , because of the lack of mercury in the process, isn't as tight initially as in the past. Because it cannot be felted as tight, the modern felt does taper/shrink during normal use but over time, if reblocked much the way you change oil in your car, it will reach a point of "no more taper or shrinkage" , thus making the felt "dead" or unable to continue the felting process. There ARE processes that the individual hatter can use to reduce this effect but not eliminate it completely. This is just one of the things that make quality differences apparent in modern day hats, but not limited to. Unfortunately, in our world today, the quality control isn't what it used to be for a number or reasons, competition being the chief reason IMHO.

If there are those that don't believe there was taper in the past I urge you to study hat designs prior to 1930 . Taper was actually part of the designs and completely accepted as normal. Still today some of the European designs feature taper as part of the design. ( think Tyrolean) so this "non taper" issue is rooted in the Indy craze and the belief that it "shouldn't be" tapered at all to be a "good" hat.

Now, as I can feel you Indy guy's readying to pounce, I need to say that I personally don't like alot of taper either so my designs reflect that, but my tastes aren't born from a film, but rather from studying hats from the past and choosing the ones I like the most.

uggg...OK...I'll step down now & take the flack,,

 

[feltfan]

do we really want to start this again? OK, my .02.

Jerekson started it, Jerekson started it!

The ones that survive today were not worn as much or taken better care of ( like the unappreciated Christmas tie) and thus were saved from the abuse. I believe that because of this, the hat is able to retain it's natural "memory" to a higher degree. One other factor is that until the Indy fanaticism, taper was

I, and many here, have vintage hats that were worn a lot
for many years. I have a couple of Cavanaghs whose
Cavanagh Edge is so worn you can see the stitch divots.
I have plenty of other beat old classic hats. No taper.

If there are those that don't believe there was taper in the past I urge you to study hat designs prior to 1930 . Taper was actually part of the designs and completely accepted as normal. Still today some of the European designs feature taper as part of the design. ( think Tyrolean) so this "non taper" issue is rooted in the Indy craze and the belief that it "shouldn't be" tapered at all to be a "good" hat.

Art, if you think about it, that is not taper.
That sloped edge is blocked in. If it were taper,
they would have to expose the hat to water or
something and make it shrink. That's not how those
hats are made, is it? A sloped side does not a taper make.
I've seen a lot of tyroleans from days of old- they retain
their shape, too. The distinction I'm making is that the taper
we are talking about here is a process that happens over
time, a defect in the felt if you will, from which it fails to
maintain its blocked shape. The shape of the tyrolean might
be more like a cone, but that is the intended shape that it
is sold in, and therefore is not taper.

Now, as I can feel you Indy guy's readying to pounce, I need to say that I
(...)
uggg...OK...I'll step down now & take the flack,,

The only thing you should get flack for is saying the
Indy guys are ready to "pounce". That won't help taper at all.

 

[fatwoul]

...One other factor is that until the Indy fanaticism...

...Now, as I can feel you Indy guy's readying to pounce, I need to say that I personally don't like alot of taper either so my designs reflect that, but my tastes aren't born from a film, but rather from studying hats from the past and choosing the ones I like the most...

Precisely the motivation behind my own style choices. I could care less about a film, and more about a shape I like. Fanaticism does indeed have a lot to answer for......Uh oh am I going to get called a backstabber again?

 

[fatwoul]

...The only thing you should get flack for is saying the
Indy guys are ready to "pounce". That won't help taper at all.

Worst. Joke. Evar. lol

 

[Art Fawcett]

I, and many here, have vintage hats that were worn a lot
for many years. I have a couple of Cavanaghs whose
Cavanagh Edge is so worn you can see the stitch divots.
I have plenty of other beat old classic hats. No taper.

How did I KNOW I was going to get that answer Feltfan?? lol

Art, if you think about it, that is not taper.

I disagree Feltfan, taper is a sloping effect whether it is built in or natural process.
That said, I understand what you are saying. The one question I would want to ask most is this. How much taper did your "beater" hats start with? Please understand, I'm talking degree, not whether it's is tapered or not. All hats have some taper, whether its noticable or not. SO, if you state that the "beaters" have no taper, how can you be sure? Since by nature that are used, how can you determine the starting point of the hat? Right now they appear to have no taper to your eye, and I'm not argueing with what you see, but what if they were even straighter sided to start with and have tapered to what you see now?

 

[feltfan]

I disagree Feltfan, taper is a sloping effect whether it is built in or natural process.

Sure. But what we're talking about here is
unsightly or unanticipated taper that is
noticable and regularly objected to here.
Really in modern factory hats it's a serious
quality defect. A minor taper is no big deal.

And for those of you who are going crazy following this,
not to be confused with a tapir:

That said, I understand what you are saying. The one question I would want to ask most is this. How much taper did your "beater" hats start with? Please understand, I'm talking degree, not whether it's is tapered or not. All hats have some taper, whether its noticable or not. SO, if you state that the "beaters" have no taper, how can you be sure? Since by nature that are used, how can you determine the starting point of the hat? Right now they appear to have no taper to your eye, and I'm not argueing with what you see, but what if they were even straighter sided to start with and have tapered to what you see now?

We'll never know. But the vintage hats I have seen
(and I know you've seen more than I'll ever see) have
never exhibited an objectionable degree of tapering.
So okay, I can't swear that there is no tapering. But it's
not a problem in vintage hats and it is for new ones.

 

[indycop]

do we really want to start this again? OK, my .02. The basic felting process hasn't changed since the beginning of time, but chemicals have. Mercury, I'm sure, had alot to do with the tightness of the process but obviously, that's changed to other chemicals for the same carroting. I believe that in daily used hats, tapering DID occur but the hats were worn, as meant to be, and thrown away in the normal process of living. The ones that survive today were not worn as much or taken better care of ( like the unappreciated Christmas tie) and thus were saved from the abuse. I believe that because of this, the hat is able to retain it's natural "memory" to a higher degree. One other factor is that until the Indy fanaticism, taper was just expected and was dealt with as a normal thing. When it became too much for the owners liking, it was just taken to the local hat shop and reblocked. Only after the sometimes overboard ideas trying to emulate a film did this even become an issue.
I agree that the felting , because of the lack of mercury in the process, isn't as tight initially as in the past. Because it cannot be felted as tight, the modern felt does taper/shrink during normal use but over time, if reblocked much the way you change oil in your car, it will reach a point of "no more taper or shrinkage" , thus making the felt "dead" or unable to continue the felting process. There ARE processes that the individual hatter can use to reduce this effect but not eliminate it completely. This is just one of the things that make quality differences apparent in modern day hats, but not limited to. Unfortunately, in our world today, the quality control isn't what it used to be for a number or reasons, competition being the chief reason IMHO.

If there are those that don't believe there was taper in the past I urge you to study hat designs prior to 1930 . Taper was actually part of the designs and completely accepted as normal. Still today some of the European designs feature taper as part of the design. ( think Tyrolean) so this "non taper" issue is rooted in the Indy craze and the belief that it "shouldn't be" tapered at all to be a "good" hat.

Now, as I can feel you Indy guy's readying to pounce, I need to say that I personally don't like alot of taper either so my designs reflect that, but my tastes aren't born from a film, but rather from studying hats from the past and choosing the ones I like the most.

uggg...OK...I'll step down now & take the flack,,

Art, do you want to borrow my vest?!lol

 

[Art Fawcett]

Art, do you want to borrow my vest?!

thanks IC...as more Indy guys log on I'm sure I'm gonna need it

Sure. But what we're talking about here is
unsightly or unanticipated taper that is
noticable and regularly objected to here.
Really in modern factory hats it's a serious
quality defect. A minor taper is no big deal.

No arguement there Feltfan!! Modern factory hats DO have an issue with this that I can only assume will be corrected as demand for better hats increases. What I'm actually trying to do here is give a less than scientific explanation of "dead" felt and to try to ease the "Absolutes" that are often taken as gospel but not necessarily truly absolute.
OK, here is my basic theory ( and this is for some of our newer members, not you as I know you are speaking from a solid knowledge base)

Felt is made by combining fur fibers, subjecting it to heat & moisture ( steam or boiling water) then "massaging or kneading" it to get the fibers to bond to each other. This process is repeated until you have a basically solid felt , but still with air gaps within the felt.
After a finished hat is made, the felt still has these air gaps that, over time are exposed to continued weather, body heat, expansion & contraction, massaging ( taking on & off) that continues the felting process without much recognition as such. At SOME point ( which is under debate always) the air gaps are removed by the process and the felt reaches its maximum "tightness" for lack of a better word.

It's this "tighness maximum" is what I would call "dead felt". So, what I believe is this. If we assign a number to "maximum" of 100 , vintage felt, using mercury in the carroting process ( opening up the natural barbs on the fur) would probably score something in the neighborhood of an 80. with only 20% remaining to maximum. Modern felt, without the mercury in the process, would probably not score higher than 60, leaving 40% remaining to max.

Even if it's sitting in a box for 50 years, the felting continues but at a microscopic pace based only on atmosperic conditions and still reaches "max" albeit at a slow rate.

My contention is that all felt tapers, but it's the degree at which it does that is different between modern vs vintage. Because vintage hatters could use mercury in the process ( although it made them crazy) the felt started closer to max and therefore taper would be less detectable to start with, but by this time ( today) vintage felts are WAY past reaching max whereas, modern felts are just starting the "final journey" to "death" and the difference can be pretty startling.

There are also issues with modern dyes, finishing work, etc. but I only am speaking of basic taper. I agree there is work to be done but if you have a basic understanding that felt "lives" until all gaps are gone, taper isn't as big an issue as some think. Hats are made to wear and taper is and I contend always has been occuring at different degrees but can easily be remedied by reblocking occasionally.

 

[feltfan]

is different between modern vs vintage. Because vintage hatters could use mercury in the process ( although it made them crazy) the felt started closer to max and therefore taper would be less.

Yeah, not like those sane, level headed hat makers of
today, who need to buy an entire cattle ranch in another
state in order to make custom fedoras.

In case folks are wondering, we are basically agreeing here.
Just wanted to clarify our terms when discussing this
contentous issue.