That combination makes for the most conservative and formal black tie outfit?

[Abraham]

What combination makes for the most conservative and formal black tie outfit? Below are my best guesses. Did I miss anything? Thanks.

Color: Black rather than midnight blue?

Lapels: Peak rather than shawl?

Shirt: Turndown collar rather than wing collar? (black tie only.)

Bow Tie color: Black only?

Bow Tie type: Normal bow tie rather than skinny, butterfly, bat-wing or diamond bow tie?

Vest vs. cummerbund: Vest rather than cummerbund?

Vest color: Black or midnight blue rather than anything else?

Shoe type: Wholecut Balmoral rather than anything else?

 

[Fastuni]

Black SB peak-lapel coat, black waistcoat, trousers with single stripe.
WING collar starched marcella shirt (black stud buttons i.e. onyx) with black medium wide bowtie (not too skinny, not too much butterfly). Black laqcue oxfords wholecut or with simple capto6e. No flower but white starched hankie. Onyx or silver cufflinks. Silver pocket watch optional but no wristwatch.

 

[GHT]

What combination makes for the most conservative and formal black tie outfit?

Most conservative and formal? I wouldn't like to pinpoint just one. On a cruise ship, most of the male passengers will have just one black tux, for that occasion I prefer a cream, single breasted jacket, agree with the black pants with a single satin stripe. When I wear a black jacket I team it with a thirties collar and I like the white on white look, that's a white tie on white shirt and a white, brocaded waistcoat, but I prefer a black tie when wearing the cream jacket. My choice of shoes would be two tone, black and white, patent leather, spectators, worn with a subtle patterned pair of black socks. Agree with the studs rather than buttons for the shirt, but a pocket watch looks too fussy for my taste. Like it or not, I wear an original, 1930's, wind up, black faced, wrist watch. It's useless for telling the time with, you can't see the clock face unless it's in daylight. A matching satin pocket handkerchief and scarf complete the look. I did try wearing white gloves but it had the effect of looking like Mickey mouse.

 

[Edward]

Color: Black rather than midnight blue?

Theoretically black, but under the right sort of artificial light, the midnight blue will always look more black and so probably sharper, hence more 'formal' to my eye in that sense.

Lapels: Peak rather than shawl?

SB jacket is always more formal than DB; in terms of lapels, from least to most formal, it's notch, shawl, peak.

Shirt: Turndown collar rather than wing collar? (black tie only.)

To personal taste, really. Wing collars were common in the ealry thirties as black tie 'norms' were still evolving out of white tie, but these days I'd say either. Wing collar if, for you, 'greater formality' is enhanced by it being a touch moree different than a regular shirt.

Bow Tie color: Black only?

Black only. Whatever the level of formality you're shooting for with black tie, it should only ever be a black bow. They do, after all, call it black tie for a reason.

Bow Tie type: Normal bow tie rather than skinny, butterfly, bat-wing or diamond bow tie?

To personal taste.

Vest vs. cummerbund: Vest rather than cummerbund?

Yes, waistcoat/vest. A cummerbund is less formal (though the latter is preferable if you're wearing a white jacket - the point being it's a 'Summer' / hot climate version.... though the white dj is, of course, itslef less formal).

Vest color: Black or midnight blue rather than anything else?

B/MB to match the jacket (never try to mix these two hues), though another option is to wear a whire cotton pique waistcoat as per white tie. This was common in the thirties, I believe. Often do it myself. (If you're on a budget, it's also significantly cheaper than a wool or silk, black evening waistcoat. Never wear a regular day waistcoat, evne in the right colour - the 'v' isn't deep enough, and it looks wrong).

Shoe type: Wholecut Balmoral rather than anything else?

The most formal option would technically still be opera pumps, though to me they look too much with black tie. The next most formal option is a plain, patent leather shoe, in black. Toe-caps are also acceptable, if slightly less formal - but who is really going to both know that and have the bad grace to make a thing of pointing it out?

 

[GHT]

Yes, waistcoat/vest. A cummerbund is less formal (though the latter is preferable if you're wearing a white jacket - the point being it's a 'Summer' / hot climate version.... though the white dj is, of course, itslef less formal).
B/MB to match the jacket (never try to mix these two hues), though another option is to wear a white cotton pique waistcoat as per white tie. This was common in the thirties, I believe. Often do it myself. (If you're on a budget, it's also significantly cheaper than a wool or silk, black evening waistcoat.

Failing that you could always get a wife to make you something like this.

 

[F. J.]

What combination makes for the most conservative and formal black tie outfit? [...]

It depends on what you mean by conservative. If you mean the most classic, then that would be peak lapels, marcella turndown-collar shirt, black waistcoat or cummerbund, &c.


The most formal you could get with black tie is as follows:

• Black single-breasted peak lapel dinner jacket with fine-ribbed or barathea silk facings with matching silk on trouser stripes
  
• Plain (not marcella) stiff-fronted shirt with single cuffs and detachable wing or stand-up collar
• Studs & Links: Mother-of-pearl with gold or silver trim; plain gold or silver
  
• Black bow tie that matches lapels; shape is up to you, but it is hard to beat a classic butterfly (or a non-skinny batwing)
  
• White full-dress waistcoat
  
• If you want to, a gold or silver watch on a gold or silver chain, or on a grosgrain fob (Wristwatches are inappropriate in this context)
  
• Opera pumps or wholecut balmorals with silk stockings
• Optional: White linen pocket-handkerchief and/or white or red carnation

Essentially, you are wearing all the accoutrements de rigeur with white tie with the exception of the tie (and the coat, of course).

Take your cue from Nick Charles:

If you want to take it a step further, you could wear a chapeau claque when out of doors. Although it was increasing less common after the mid-1930’s, it was still considered correct with black tie until the 1950’s. A good example is Fred Astaire in Top Hat (I couldn’t find an image).

 

[Fastuni]

The composition you described certainly is the most formal in a 30's context (mostly late 20's to early 30's), but pumps, pearl buttons, white waistcoat and possibly a carnation or even a top-hat would certainly appear rather extravagant, if not gaudy, to most.

I interpreted the "conservative" in Abrahams question to mean classic, sombre, serious and subdued. Hence the advice to limit the colors to black and white only and to avoid anything thar might be misinterpreted as "foppish".

 

[Abraham]

The composition you described certainly is the most formal in a 30's context (mostly late 20's to early 30's), but pumps, pearl buttons, white waistcoat and possibly a carnation or even a top-hat would certainly appear rather extravagant, if not gaudy, to most.

I interpreted the "conservative" in Abrahams question to mean classic, sombre, serious and subdued. Hence the advice to limit the colors to black and white only and to avoid anything thar might be misinterpreted as "foppish".

Thanks for your response. That's why I chose a turn-down collar over a wing collar. I wear a wing with my white tie outfit, but it looks a touch affected when it comes to black tie it seems.

 

[Abraham]

It depends on what you mean by conservative. If you mean the most classic, then that would be peak lapels, marcella turndown-collar shirt, black waistcoat or cummerbund, &c.


The most formal you could get with black tie is as follows:

• Black single-breasted peak lapel dinner jacket with fine-ribbed or barathea silk facings with matching silk on trouser stripes
  
• Plain (not marcella) stiff-fronted shirt with single cuffs and detachable wing or stand-up collar
• Studs & Links: Mother-of-pearl with gold or silver trim; plain gold or silver
  
• Black bow tie that matches lapels; shape is up to you, but it is hard to beat a classic butterfly (or a non-skinny batwing)
  
• White full-dress waistcoat

• 
  
  Thank you. Why would you say a white waitcoat versus a black one? Thanks again.

 

[Awesomest Guy]

• 
  
  Thank you. Why would you say a white waitcoat versus a black one? Thanks again.

I think they said that because the white waistcoat is typically associated with full evening dress. In addition, I find non-matching waistcoats to be a tad more formal than those that match.

 

[Edward]

Failing that you could always get a wife to make you something like this.
View attachment 44726

I saw that in another thread, looks great! Once we get my flat sorted (we're converting the spare bedroom into a study/hobby room), I might well have herself run me one up in black brocade, using my white tie one as a pattern.

 

[Rabbit]

Theoretically black, but under the right sort of artificial light, the midnight blue will always look more black and so probably sharper, hence more 'formal' to my eye in that sense.

I'm afraid the "midnight blue looks blacker than black" phrase is a myth as old as the invention of the midnight blue tux in the 30s itself. The fashion élite of the time who introduced the midnight blue to informal wear were the ones who also started that myth deliberately. They enjoyed making jokes like that. They wore what they wore because they loved playing with new styles and they often stopped wearing styles as soon as the populace had adopted them. Fashion was a top-down process back then, unlike today where the industry takes "inspiration" from any level of the populace and from any degree of taste in clothing.
These people started wearing midnight blue because it looks different than black. A similar thing was the introduction of off-white (ivory) shirts to informal wear in the 50s/60s.
A midnight blue barathea wool does look very dark indeed, and if you have nothing to compare it with it might be perceived as black. However, with other people in the room wearing back tuxedos, a midnight blue one doesn't look blacker than black. It simply looks like midnight blue under artificial light, which is close to black, but not richer or darker or whatever. Also, the lapel facings are always black, so there is some contrast clearly visible between the black grosgrain or satin lapel and the blue wool.

 

[Abraham]

I'm afraid the "midnight blue looks blacker than black" phrase is a myth as old as the invention of the midnight blue tux in the 30s itself. The fashion élite of the time who introduced the midnight blue to informal wear were the ones who also started that myth deliberately. They enjoyed making jokes like that. They wore what they wore because they loved playing with new styles and they often stopped wearing styles as soon as the populace had adopted them. Fashion was a top-down process back then, unlike today where the industry takes "inspiration" from any level of the populace and from any degree of taste in clothing.
These people started wearing midnight blue because it looks different than black. A similar thing was the introduction of off-white (ivory) shirts to informal wear in the 50s/60s.
A midnight blue barathea wool does look very dark indeed, and if you have nothing to compare it with it might be perceived as black. However, with other people in the room wearing back tuxedos, a midnight blue one doesn't look blacker than black. It simply looks like midnight blue under artificial light, which is close to black, but not richer or darker or whatever. Also, the lapel facings are always black, so there is some contrast clearly visible between the black grosgrain or satin lapel and the blue wool.

"Blacker", "darker" and "richer" are definitely not synonymous. Midnight blue, even true navy blue often looks far "richer" and sometimes even "darker" than black -- even though it doesn't look "blacker."

 

[Edward]

Interesting! In photos of me in my midnight blue tails, they definitely look blue (flash photography), but they certainly don't wash-out the way a lot, but not all, blacks do under artificial light and/or camera flash.

I'm sure a good black will always be more formal, though.

 

[Dirk Wainscotting]

"Blacker", "darker" and "richer" are definitely not synonymous. Midnight blue, even true navy blue often looks far "richer" and sometimes even "darker" than black -- even though it doesn't look "blacker."

Black, on the colour spectrum, absorbs far more light than blue ever will, so it is by definition darker and will always generally look darker. The only aberrations causing it to reflect light under certain conditions are shiny surfaces (silk, or a particularly hard finish on the cloth etc).
Dark blue has some properties (similar light absorption levels) that will make it look dark, but not 'darker'. That's just impossible.

The thing is some 'black' cloths are made in different ways, using mixed colours or single black dyes. So they can differ.

"Richer" is an aesthetic judgement, so it shouldn't be lumped together with the other qualities.

 

[Abraham]

Black often DOES look shinier and "shallower" than very dark blues. Hence they don't look as dark or rich.

 

[Dirk Wainscotting]

Black often DOES look shinier and "shallower" than very dark blues. Hence they don't look as dark or rich.

It doesn't. On cheap or hard worsteds perhaps, but cheap worsted blues will do the same. Black broadcloth; flannel; the sort of black micro-twill used for morning coats and many baratheas are neither shiny nor reflective.

The sort of cloth used for formal attire now reacts much the same whether it is black or blue. I think it;s safe to say the 'midnight blue looks blacker' idea really is just a myth.

 

[Abraham]

I never said that "midnight blue looks blacker." Extremely dark blues certainly can look richer and darker than black, however...

 

[Dirk Wainscotting]

I never said that "midnight blue looks blacker." Extremely dark blues certainly can look richer and darker than black, however...

Well obviously something not black can't be 'blacker', but you are saying midnight blue looks darker than black and it's impossible because black absorbs more 'colour' and light by its very nature.

Already I wrote above that "richer" is merely an aesthetic opinion, not a colour 'fact'.