Temple of Jawnz?

[Surferbruce]

Some other folks are picking up where TOJ fell off under the name Falcon. Could never quite get the hype for TOJ when Aero and Vanson and the like are so good. TOJ (Drew) ended up running off with lots of people's cash....so far..,

 

[ProteinNerd]

I wondered how the whole thing had ended. Makes Lawless look like the epitome of good governance!

I don't know, my impression is that the denim market is much MUCH bigger than the leather jacket market and that a lot more people got stung by LD, maybe not for as much on average.....then again, I could be wrong.

 

[Sloan1874]

Perhaps more, but the ToJ scam seems to have gone of for-ever. I also from reading the Reddit threads, I got the impression that people got the measure of Lawless quickly - hell, I think I predicted by post nine that this would happen (I'm not bigging myself up here, it was just obviously so ott in what was being offered).

 

[Monitor]

Could never quite get the hype for TOJ when Aero and Vanson and the like are so good.

Right! I mean, there isn't a single thing TOJ had to offer that some of the other manufacturers weren't already doing, at an infinitely higher level of quality at that. And talk about a boxy fitting jackets! Aren't these supposed to be fitted?

 

[Sloan1874]

I wasn't impressed. I think we're still in the phase where offers like ToJ cause a rush and people end up hugely disappointed. I'd like to think that these will fade with bitter experience, but I'm not sure. I guess we're all suckers for a sweet offer.

 

[tblay]

As someone who has a jacket (quilted double rider in oxblood calf) on order from TOJ/John Coppidge, I would explain it in a slightly different way. If you want a slim-fitting jacket with high armholes in a classic design with a more fashion friendly cut, TOJ has almost no competition at their price point. Styleforum is sourcing a custom Vanson currently that would be somewhat equivalent, but this market is pretty thin. TOJ started out making a varsity (see pic below) and has done well because there is almost no competition in their market, which is 20-30 somethings with just enough money to afford an $800 jacket, but not enough to step up to something more expensive.

And honestly, as a slim size 36, I'm wary of buying from the makers most praised on this forum as most of their jackets look big through the middle and the upper arms and I don't want to look like I'm wearing my dad's jacket.

View attachment 14066

I'm a really lean size 36. I don't have noodles for arms, but I'm not putting on any gun shows either. My Aeros have all fit amazingly in the chest, shoulders, and back length, but I could fit three of my arms in each sleeve. Scots must have massive triceps. Still, all anybody ever notices when I wear the one Aero I have left is its weight, thickness, and the beauty of the hide.

Eastman makes an off-the-rack slim-cut A-2.

Before I discovered Johnson Leather Corp. and Langlitz, as well as other MTM jacket makers that I haven't tried, I thought it was hopeless to find a great leather jacket that fit me nicely everywhere and offered some protection for riding.

 

[Otter]

I wondered how the whole thing had ended. Makes Lawless look like the epitome of good governance!

Still rumbling on, I spent an interesting half hour catching up on the styleforum thread this morning !

 

[Edward]

The Lawless thing reminded me of a girl who started making costumes on the American Rocky Horror scene years ago. She was donig them much cheaper than established providers. A lot of them were a bit quick and dirty, but much cheaper and that's what a lot of folks wanted, so... She just took far too many offers, got overwhelmed, then stopped contacting people. It all ended up with a messy flurry of threats of legal action and all sorts before it got sorted. Botton line is, a lot of people look at something they can make, or arrange to have made, and then start a business without necesarily having the skill to run things like supply chains and all sorts. Lawless seems to have been incompetence; other business start ups start to look muh dodgier, even if they didn'tg start out as fraudulent. The Blogspot on ToJ I read from the link above - if that's accurate, it's really an odd set-up. Good luck to thosed trying to pick up where it left off; depending on what involvement they had in the original, no matter how innocent, I'd be wary.

I think you'll be hard-pressed to get an A-2 in FQHH. It's not a hide that lends itself to the style, which was a sort of 'summer weight' jacket. Aero, GW, ELC etc tend to be mid-weight horse, goat or steer, so that they can get the drape of the original - though I have a bison A-2, which is heavier than a standard A-2 (more a Scottish summer weight jacket), but even then it's nowhere near as unyielding as FQHH.

Yeah. I've seen a few over the years, but it never seems to look quite right to me - I'd also be wary of the combination of an especially unyielding hide and knits. That said, it can't be the knits are the issue, given that they offer the "1950s Flight Jacket" and "Happy Days" models in FQHH, so presumably it's more that Ken and Denny just want to make A2s with more of a historically accurate look and feel to them.

probably when you plan to stitch on your brand logo on something it is wise to limit your costumer's "creativity"

Exactly. That's what Ken's done at Aero since 2012, and it makes complete sense: whatever gets out there in the real world, that's what people are gonig to judge your brand by.

Some other folks are picking up where TOJ fell off under the name Falcon. Could never quite get the hype for TOJ when Aero and Vanson and the like are so good. TOJ (Drew) ended up running off with lots of people's cash....so far..,

I assume the hype is for the "new" - everybody, or at least a lot of folks like to find something new, different, not quite the same as the herd.... I've seen a lot of new brands come and go across the years I've been on TFL (nine and a half odd years, I think it is now?), denim, leather, and others. I do get the impression that when you're dealing with a 'fashion' based crowd like they tend to be on StyleForum, you'll see a lot more in the way of that sort of chasing the new than perhaps here where tradition and heritage are more often prized over 'new'.

 

[Monitor]

lol never heard of that Rocky Horror thing. What happened, how was it sorted out?

 

[Sloan1874]

Oddly, I noticed not that long ago that one FL-er was selling his FQHH A-2, and the pics of it looked amazing. But I guess he'd done all the hard work of breaking it in for the next owner.
My concern about many of the KS projects that have come up for clothing is that behind the bravado marketing they put up, the mind-set seems short-termist and focused on project-by-project, rather than building a thoroughgoing business and brand.
This of course means that waiting times and customer service can come way down the list of priorities while getting people's money up front with and maximising profit margins sits up at the top.

 

[l0fielectronic]

I was never sure if Lawless was incompetence or deliberate, given how they were around a year behind with their Kickstarter when they launched online 'properly'. I think at some point they certainly became very dishonest in how they dealt with customers.

The fact the owner has now tried the same tricks with two/three new denim businesses and is currently using the same model to launch a leather bag business and an outdoor clothing one, I'm far less inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

It is unfortunate that business' like the above make it more difficult for others who are starting out to gain good will and I know I myself am much more reluctant to go with new, unproven business' unless I know I'm protected either via how I pay or by the return policy of the business.

 

[Edward]

lol never heard of that Rocky Horror thing. What happened, how was it sorted out?

Eventually somebody in the communit5 acted as a go-between and I think there was a mix of folks getting their stuff, their money back, and some level of writing it off to experience. To be entirely fair, as much as the lady in question got out of her depth, there were also those with unrealistic expectations of a one-person, home-business.

Oddly, I noticed not that long ago that one FL-er was selling his FQHH A-2, and the pics of it looked amazing. But I guess he'd done all the hard work of breaking it in for the next owner.

Yeah, they can look amazing, though equally given how long the prevailing wisdom has been "Aero's A2s are nice but less accurate thn X, Y & Z", I can see them wanting to put limits on it. Whereas variety is what often sells the civilian stuff, the A2 market does seem to be very much focussed on accuracy to spec...

My concern about many of the KS projects that have come up for clothing is that behind the bravado marketing they put up, the mind-set seems short-termist and focused on project-by-project, rather than building a thoroughgoing business and brand.
This of course means that waiting times and customer service can come way down the list of priorities while getting people's money up front with and maximising profit margins sits up at the top.

It's certainly much easier to operate where you get the money up front, then produce the goods - the tricky bit for anyone is gonig to be shifting over to a stock model, where you can't just cancel a line that didn't attract interest without losing anything.

I was never sure if Lawless was incompetence or deliberate, given how they were around a year behind with their Kickstarter when they launched online 'properly'. I think at some point they certainly became very dishonest in how they dealt with customers.

The fact the owner has now tried the same tricks with two/three new denim businesses and is currently using the same model to launch a leather bag business and an outdoor clothing one, I'm far less inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

There does come a point where it seems that a company has indeed chosen to operate in a shady way. I had the impression for some time that Lawless were trying to take in new orders to fund completing others - it becomes a bit of a Pyramid scheme after a bit.

It is unfortunate that business' like the above make it more difficult for others who are starting out to gain good will and I know I myself am much more reluctant to go with new, unproven business' unless I know I'm protected either via how I pay or by the return policy of the business.

Yes, online morso than in bricks and mortar, there's a lot of trust required. In that respect, it's not neessarily easier to start up online than offline, even if it dispenses with a lot of business overheads.