Super 200 Suits starting at just $9000!

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Just browsing the internet in search of info on fabrics and I found this site. Bargain basement suits,...get 'em while ya can.
Also available, Custom peccary shoes. Only $429
http://www.theexecutivescloset.com/fabrics/fabrics.htm

 

[resortes805]

For that price, you'd think they could afford a website that did'nt look like it was stuck in 1996.

 

[The Wingnut]

This bring up the question, I know it's some form of fabric grade, but what IS the significance of 'Super ###'? I assume it's the typical modern paper-thin stuff?

 

[Tomasso]

what IS the significance of 'Super ###'?

It's a marketing gimmick. The WSJ did a piece last month that shed some light.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

It seems to be, (ostensibly) the grade of fibers, measured in microns, used in the threads of fabrics. The higher the "super" number, the finer the fibers. I dunno,...[huh]

 

[Tomasso]

It seems to be, (ostensibly) the grade of fibers, measured in microns, used in the threads of fabrics. The higher the "super" number, the finer the fibers. I dunno,...[huh]

That's about it. But, it doesn't speak to the quality of the milled fabric. There are 100's that are of better quality than 200's.

 

[slicedbread]

Taken from one of store on ebay named The Wizard of Aahs:

The thread of this story is the numbering system used to describe the new breed of super-lightweight, high-twist wools. Pioneered by Italian mills about ten years ago, these fabrics are made using high-tech machines that spin wool lighter and finer than it's ever been spun before. The various grades of cloth are referred to as Super 100s, Super 120s, Super 150s and so on, up to Super 200s, which Oxxford Clothes started using last year for a line of suits. (As far as I know, this is the top of the super-lightweight wool pyramid right now.)

The problem is the impression left by the numbering system. Set up as a shorthand for describing the fineness of wool fibers, it has, in the process of trickling out into the marketplace, come to be taken as a quality ranking. It's easy to assume a Super 120s wool must be better than a Super 100s wool and not as good as a Super 150s wool—in short, the higher the S-number, the better the fabric.

That's simply not true, and no less an authority than Paolo Zegna, the textiles division president of Ermenegildo Zegna, describes the S-system, as it's known in the trade, as "a very big confusion." Zegna doesn't use S-numbers at all, preferring to describe its lightweight wools as High Performance or 15 Milmil 15, for example. Still, the S-numbers persist, a lingua franca that's irresistible because it reduces a complex subject to a sort of yardstick.

The S-system dates back to the 18th century (also known at the time as the worsted count system), and then as now it denoted the fineness of a given bale of wool. In those days finished yarn was coiled into 560-yard-long loops called hanks. The S-number indicated how many hanks could be gotten out of a pound of wool. The finer the wool yarn, the farther it would go. The S-scale ran from 30s to 100s, then the finest wool available. (Today 100s wool is practically the bottom rung of the S-scale.)

The S-scale remains even though hanks are long gone. Now the number refers to the fineness of the wool as measured in microns (one-millionth of a meter). Does that mean finer is better? Not necessarily. As Paolo Zegna explains, "You can have a good 15-micron wool or a bad 15-micron wool." (Finer does mean more expensive: Oxxford's suits made from Super 200s wool retail for $14,000.)

Fineness is just one quality component: Length, strength, color, and crimp are also important, with the first two particularly so. Length is critical because the longer the fiber, the stronger the yarn that can be spun from it. Strength is critical because the yarn must be twisted very tightly (hence the name high-twist fabric) to achieve a fine weave. The way in which the fabric is finished also plays an enormous role in the feel and look. At Dormeuil, I have seen Super 100s wool that felt as sumptuous as Super 120s or 140s because of the finishing.

But there's a mania among consumers and manufacturers for fineness and lightness. "There's been a revolution in the making of a garment," says Zegna. "The heaviest fabric used today is lighter than the lightest fabric used ten years ago. Ten years ago '13-micron wool' would have meant nothing." Pier Luigi Guerci, president of Loro Piana, adds,"Fifteen years ago there was no production under 17 microns. Now, thousands of bales are produced."

To get such fine wool, sheep flocks have to be specially bred and managed so they grow the requisite fleece. ("Hothouse sheep," quips Ashley Dormeuil, director of Dormeuil.) The quest has even spawned a face-off between New Zealand and Australia, the world's largest producers of fine wool, to see which can produce the finest bale of yarn. In 1998 Australia took the crown with a 13.3micron bale; last year New Zealand bested that by 0.2 microns. How thin is that? Well, one human hair is 40-120 microns thick.

The irony of this micron mania is that the finest wools (Super 150s and above) don't necessarily make the best garments for everyday wear. For one thing, these fabrics are hard to tailor because the material shifts so easily when it is sewn. (Italian tailors say that the wool is "nervous.") Such wools also wrinkle almost as easily as linen. They are delicate—Paolo Zegna says a Super 180s is like a Ferrari—and not as durable as a less-fine wool. And suits made from them have to be dry-cleaned sparingly. "It's a high-maintenance garment," says Gianni Campagna, the Milan custom tailor who made the suits, all Super 150s, that Pierce Brosnan wore in The Thomas Crown Affair. "If you stain it, you can only spot-clean it. Or buy a new suit," he adds jokingly.

So what should you do? Make Super 100s and Super 140s the mainstay of your wardrobe. They are durable, resilient, and today's fabrics are superb. Treat the Super 150s and Super 180s as caviar (wonderful, but not to be eaten every day). For these really are connoisseurs' suits. "The pleasure of the weave is something special," concedes Paolo Zegna. Says Pier Luigi Guerci, "The difference to the touch between 17.5 microns and 13.4 microns is enormous. The latter is smoother, creamier. Yet both are fine fabrics." And that's the thing: Ultimately it is the look and tailoring of the fabric that matter most. Everything else is just a number.

I thought it was a decent read but I also thought that it contained slight bits of propaganda...

 

[Feraud]

For that price, you'd think they could afford a website that did'nt look like it was stuck in 1996.

lol lol That says it all!

 

[Tomasso]

I also thought that it contained slight bits of propaganda...

How so?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

what weight (Oz) do these fabrics come in at? Probably those 9 Oz rice paper fabrics, right?

bk

 

[Tomasso]

what weight (Oz) do these fabrics come in at? Probably those 9 Oz rice paper fabrics, right?

I'm not into supers at all, but I've seen some 11oz H&S 200's and some heavier weights(13oz ?) at the lower numbers(150's ?).

 

[melankomas]

For that price, you'd think they could afford a website that did'nt look like it was stuck in 1996.

oh, my...it is rather wretched. i thought it might be incompatible with my browser, but it's quite as unpleasant via Internet Explorer and Opera.

 

[Senator Jack]

The real trouble is just starting. Try to get a custom suit in 80s or 100s these days and you're limited to a few patterns. Because the masses have been suckered into buying 120s and up, there are going to be fewer mills producing the longer lasting materials, and we'll all be doomed to wearing VERY expensive throwaway suits.

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[Baron Kurtz]

unless you go vintage, o'course ...

bk

 

[herringbonekid]

...it's not so much the weight of modern fabrics that is the problem (although it IS a problem) but the floppiness. there were very lightweight fabrics back in the 30s for summer suits, but they had a stiffness which held it's shape well (i'm not saying they were starchy, but they had a springyness and crispness which 'remembered' it's shape). most modern suit fabrics i've seen are too 'flowing' and would be all over the place if made into a pair of wide legged trousers.

 

[Briscoeteque]

I don't get it, the high thread count suits are delicate, hard to tailor, have no durability, they wrinkle, no weight, it's like wearing a costume! It's just a costume that's incredibly expensive and feels really soft, is that it? I have a Super 100's suit, and while it's a nice suit, it wrinkles very easily as it is. I can't imagine spending twenty times as much to get a suit that is twice as soft and delicate. The only part of my suit that should be this soft is the lining. A nice lining, surrounded by layers and layers of the heaviest wools is my ideal. Sure, I like variety, but these super 180's suits don't sound like clothes to me, they're costumes for the rich and pretentious, not to mention wasteful.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Yep, seems it's just a gimmick.
Although I have a super100s suit that I quite like. The fabric does have a nice feel to it, but is a bit on the thin side. Good for summer wear though.
I think anything beyond 80s or 100 s is overkill and just plain silly.

 

[Matt Deckard]

The light weights back in the 1940's such as the 14-16 oz wools are the heaviest weights we now have available.

Wools were rough and didn't wrinkle too easily. Nowadays the super means wears out super fast. I was talking to an employee of a custom sho in New York and he said his own suit might last the year. Paying 3,000 or more for a suit that will look like it's been around for 20 years? doesn't make sense to me... perhaps i'm the crazy one. I want my suits to take a beating.

Last night i again watched Dr. No and how the suits fir Connery. The fabrics look to be the light weight of the day. 1963. They were heavier and kept a better crease than anything Brosnan ever wore.

I remember being in a shop where a man was getting a made to measure suit. He asked if they had anything thinner thinnrer and lighter. I looked on and thought the Dress shirt he had on was fine enough... why even wear a jacket if it's disposable and doesn't hold off the breeze?

 

[Feraud]

I prefer to have a choice of material weights. Paper thin might be acceptable in very hot and humid weather. It might sell better in certain cities too. Let us not be fooled into paying thousands of dollars for t-shirt weight suits.
Personally I look for medium to heavy material clothes. I do not overheat very easily and prefer the texture, drape, and strength of heavy cloth.
Let the market decide and not fool people with marketing illusions of thin material somehow being better, classier, or more functional than other weight materials.
Knowledge is power and demand can sway the market.
I think a Classic Style article on just this subject is needed.

 

[melankomas]

I don't get it, the high thread count suits are delicate, hard to tailor, have no durability, they wrinkle, no weight, it's like wearing a costume! It's just a costume that's incredibly expensive and feels really soft, is that it? I have a Super 100's suit, and while it's a nice suit, it wrinkles very easily as it is. I can't imagine spending twenty times as much to get a suit that is twice as soft and delicate. The only part of my suit that should be this soft is the lining. A nice lining, surrounded by layers and layers of the heaviest wools is my ideal. Sure, I like variety, but these super 180's suits don't sound like clothes to me, they're costumes for the rich and pretentious, not to mention wasteful.

if i might venture, this trend could be due to the suit's decline as a staple of menswear. it's certainly a staple of executives, as well as security guards in swank places, but i expect one doesn't see nearly as many men in suits as one once did. this "business casual" idea, for example, means suits need not be worn daily in several business environments, and so the suits need not be able to withstand daily wear. if suits need not serve the multitudes, suits need not be made accordingly. this is only a possibility...i don't know enough about the history of fashion to have any real grounds for typing this.