Submachineguns

[geo]

WW2 was the first war that saw the widespread use of individual automatic weapons among infantry. Along with the uniform worn, the submachinegun became a piece of equipment that would instantly identify a soldier's country. Each country had its own design, but these four were the most widely used. Each had qualities and defects:

Sten
Created in a hurry, in 1941, to counter an imminent German invasion. It became a popular weapon, maybe because it was the only one available in great numbers for British soldiers at the time.

M1 Thompson
The "Tommy Gun", of mob war notoriety. Fired a 45 cal. bullet.

MP 40
German precision engineering. Its fine tolerances became a defect on the Eastern front, where dust and dirt would frequently jam the mechanism. Also, the lubricant would solidify at the very low temperatures common during the Russian winter.

PPSH 41
Ugliest and at the same time the best weapon. 900 rounds/minute, compared to 600 for the MP 40. 71 bullets in the magazine, compared with 30 for the MP 40. Loose tolerances meant that dirt accumulated on the mechanism wouldn't keep it from functioning.

Cast your vote.

 

[Mycroft]

M1 all the way, .45 caliber of pain, distruction, and mayhem all made in America for our foces over seas.

 

[Big Man]

I like the Thompson, but it does have its limitations. The .45 is a relatively good anti-personnel round at close range; but beyond close range, it may very well be a bit more luck than skill to effectively hit the target. The Thompson is also a fairly heavy weapon (for its size and range limitations), and if you use the drum magazine you almost need an engineering degree to load and engage.

 

[Andykev]

I vote German

The Thompson is a Very HEAVY weapon. It also cannot fire the entire drum magazine without rewinding it half way thru. It has a tendency to climb, and is a difficult weapon to shoot well.

The MP-40 machine pistol (Maschinen Pistole or MP), widely used by unit leaders in the German army in World War II, was based on the pre-war MP-38, made more suitable for mass production at reduced cost by use of stamped sheet metal parts instead of machined parts.

This was the same strategy later used by the U.S. in moving from the Thompson Submachine gun to the M-3 "Grease Gun" or in the design of the British Sten gun. Allied soldiers admired the weapon, while fearing the sound of its easily recognizable bursts of fire. They referred to it as the 'Schmeisser', even though the company of weapons designer Hugo Schmeisser, famous for the Bergmann MP-18 submachine gun from WW I, had nothing to do with the MP38 or the MP40.

MP-40
Schmeisser MP-40 9mm Submachine Gun (stock extended).

The MP-40 was a blowback operated, full auto submachine gun that fires open bolt. The charging handle on the left side of the receiver is also used as a safety, locking the bolt in its forward or rearward position when placed into slots in the receiver. The rate of fire was controlled to 400-500 rounds per minute of the 9mm Parabellum cartridge, a good rate for control by the operator. The metal "bump" on the underside, near the end of the barrel was designed to help steady the weapon when firing from the port of an armored vehicle.

More than a million MP-40s were produced by Germany during the war. Its folding metal stock made it compact and easy to carry. (The MP-38 had wodden stocks.) The foregrip was made of high-pressure molded phenolin resin, reinforced with paper pulp. This innovative material also insulated the operator from the heat of the barrel and other metal parts. The 25 or 32 round single column magazine was considered troublesome, a weakness of the design.
MP-40 Schmeisser Specifications
Characteristic Value
Caliber 9x19mm Parabellum
Mode of operation Full auto
Rate of fire 500 cpm
Weight 8.7 lbs (3.97 kg)
Overall length 32.75 in (833 mm) with stock extended
Magazine capacity 25 or 32 rounds
Effective range 330 ft (100m)
Muzzle Velicity 1250 ft./sec

The book, The MP40 Submachine Gun, has a complete history of the MP-40 with many illustrations and operating diagrams.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

The MP - 40

Our guys liked them so much they used to gather them up and use them against the Nazis.

 

[Hondo]

I like the Thompson, but it does have its limitations. The .45 is a relatively good anti-personnel round at close range; but beyond close range, it may very well be a bit more luck than skill to effectively hit the target. The Thompson is also a fairly heavy weapon (for its size and range limitations), and if you use the drum magazine you almost need an engineering degree to load and engage.

True in deed, I agree which is why they came out with the M1 carbine, light weight, but after firing a Tommy gun man does that do wonders to your biceps lol

 

[Johnny Dollar]

The Thompson .45 ACP. Nothing sound like a Tommy gun. It has a pretty good intimidation factor, and the power to back it up. It does have a limited range, but how often do you hear of stories of solders killing an enemy at 300 or 500 yards. The one other thing that is useful about the Thompson is the fact that it uses the same ammo as the 1911A1 pistol. It is always handy to have a pistol and long arm using the same ammo, especially when it's a .45.

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

There are two problems with the Thompson, first that it is bloody heavy especially when you consider the weight of all those mags full of heavy .45 ACP rounds. Second it is hard to produce.

The MP40 is probably the best all-around gun of that grouping. It is controlable on full auto, lightweight, user-friendly and cheap to manufacture. It has it all. The cyclic rate is a bit slow, but that really just helps you when you are shooting it. You can hold it on a target while shooting long bursts which is harder to do with the Thompson or PPSh.

The PPSh-41 has a few advantages, namely the 71 round drums, which usually work OK, plus it is even cheaper to make than the MP40 and it fires a better round, hot 7.62x25 Tokarev is the best armor-piercing of any of those guns and has a much flatter trajectory too. The main problem with the thing is that it is very user-unfriendly. It is loud as all hell and the spent cases eject upwards usually landing all over you.

 

[zeus36]

MP -40

Was f?§llt dir denn eigentlich ein?

 

[geo]

The MP 38/40 was made by Erma, not by Schmeisser, though it was popularly known as the Schmeisser. It's the best-looking weapon ever made, and reliable, except in the extreme conditions of the Eastern front.

Why aren't there more votes for the PPSh? It was by far the best weapon, solid and reliable, with a great rate of fire. The Germans liked it so much that they converted captured PPSHs to fire the German 9mm Parabellum bullet instead of the Soviet 7.62 mm, for which it was originally chambered.

Also, the Sten got no votes. It was a reliable weapon, and very ergonomic with its side-mounted magazine, it could be fired in the prone position.

 

[w5eo]

Just wanted to correct a common misconception about the Thompson. With its 10 lbs + weight and firing a pistol cartridge there is very little recoil and absolutely no tendency to "climb." I have fired this gun many times and it is very easily controllable.

 

[J. M. Stovall]

I know it's not in the list but my favorite is the M3A1 Grease Gun. When I was in the Army in the early 80's as a armor platoon leader we were still issued those one per tank. That thing was indestuctable and never jammed, and it used the same ammo as our 1911A1. I don't think tank crews still get either of those weapons.

The .45 caliber M3 was introduced in 1942, designed specifically for simplified production using stamped metal parts. The M3 were far easier to manufacture than the Thompson, and have a number of excellent design features in addition. The low cyclical rate of fire makes the gun easier to control than most submachine guns, not only the Thompson. The weapon's straight line of recoil thrust also adds substantially in controlling the gun in automatic fire. The gun's loose tolerances allow for reliable operation even if very dirty and, with its bolt and guide rod design make it more reliable than the Thompson under adverse conditions.

The M3/M3A1 is only capable of fully automatic operation; however, with its slow rate of fire, an experienced shooter can squeeze off single rounds.

Technical info courtesy © Kortegaard Engineering

 

[Twitch]

I'm partial to the Thompson for the knock-down power of the .45. But the MP-40 was a superb counterpart.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Let's hear it for the Patchet

I'd vote for the British Patchet. Trialled in 1944, it was so good MOD withdrew it until it was reissued as the Sterling in the 1950s (MOD hates issuing stuff that works well) and it was still in use in the first Gulf war, being replaced by the SA80 (I rest my case).

Reliable, self-cleaning bolt, one of the few SMGs you can actually hit things with and probably the last British military weapon that wasn't designed by a committee. Oh, and it was used by the Galactic Stormtroopers in Star Wars. Are you saying Darth Vader would make a mistake with his ordnance?

By the way, I guess the reason nobody voted for the Sten is that is misunderstood. It was conceived as a resistance weapon and was produced for about what you'd pay for a fully-loaded Thompson drum magazine (well, almost). The Mk1 and 2 was virtually a disposable side arm and is certainly the only weapon in the poll that can be broken down into 5 parts and hidden in the pockets of a rain coat. Assuming it has 5 pockets. The silent version is uncanny and is still used occasionally by the people from Hereford.

 

[geo]

Trialled in 1944, it was so good MOD withdrew it until it was reissued as the Sterling in the 1950s

It's out of its league here, as it's a post-WW2 weapon. Otherwise, might as well list the AK 47, which came out at the same time, shortly after WW2.

That's a good point about the silenced Sten. It was the main silenced weapon used by western special forces until the arrival of the silenced MP5. The regular Sten had a bad reputation in service, due to jamming and involuntary discharge when dropped. However, it's the only submachinegun I know of that had a poem written for it:

Copy of a poem written during World War Two and published in "The Maple Leaf Scrapbook", a souvenir book printed in Belgium at cost price to forces overseas by No. 3 Cdn. P.R. Group in 1945.

Ode to a Sten Gun
By Gunner. S.N. Teed

You wicked piece of vicious tin!
Call you a gun? Don't make me grin.

You're just a bloated piece of pipe.

You couldn't hit a hunk of tripe.

But when you're with me in the night,

I'll tell you pal, you're just alright!


Each day I wipe you free of dirt.

Your dratted corners tear my shirt.

I cuss at you and call you names,

You're much more trouble than my dames.

But boy, do I love to hear you yammer

When you 're spitting lead in a business manner.


You conceited pile of salvage junk.

I think this prowess talk is bunk.

Yet if I want a wall of lead

Thrown at some Jerry's head

It is to you I raise my hat;

You're a damn good pal...

You silly gat!

 

[BellyTank]

It's out of its league here, as it's a post-WW2 weapon.

Uh-uh-

Patchett's/Sterling Arms Company's new submachine gun was definitely war-time trialled, as Alan rightly says and was, in fact used by British Paras at Arnhem.
It was known both as the Patchett and the Sterling at that time.

I like the Owen-

B
T

 

[Alan Eardley]

It's out of its league here, as it's a post-WW2 weapon. Otherwise, might as well list the AK 47, which came out at the same time, shortly after WW2.
QUOTE]

The Patchett (later called the Sterling in 1955 or L2A3) was first used by British Airborne troops in Operation Market Garden (Arnhem) in 1944 and subsequently to a limited extent in other operations before 1945. I think this makes it a war time weapon.

The AK47 is not usually considered to be a sub-machine gun but an assault rifle. I have often seen the AKSU referred to as a submachine gun, however. The distinguishing feature would appear to be the power of the cartridge and the use of the blowback principle.

 

[Alan Eardley]

I like the Owen-

So do I, although on paper its cyclic rate is a bit high. The Owen design actually pre-dated the Sten, although 'messing about' by the Australian army delayed it's introduction significantly.

It's interesting to note the possible design interaction between the Owen and the different marks of Sten gun. By the time the Sten reached the MkV it bears a striking resemblance to the Australian weapon. I have never been able to find out if this was on purpose. A curator at the ROF Pattern Room museum in Leeds had all the marks of Sten and Owen on display and had never noticed the similarity!

The 1960s successor to the Owen, the F1, bears a similar resemblance (internal and external) to the Sterling L2A3.

 

[Twitch]

The mark of the submachine gun is that it requires no special cartridge. They use pistol ammo folks.

 

[MrBern]

True in deed, I agree which is why they came out with the M1 carbine, light weight, but after firing a Tommy gun man does that do wonders to your biceps lol

its hard to compare the two.
The carbine wasnt semi-auto til after the war.
And even then it really didnt have the stopping power.

The M3 Grease gun was a bit lighter than the Tommygun & fired the same ammo.