Stop for Nazi posts?

[Chas]

We've slaughtered our fair share of Johnny Foreigner, for various reasons.

You say that people who are interested in Nazis should visit the camps. Yet you also subscribe to the view that all Germans in the military should have been killed. Can you not see the hypocrisy of your argument, and how your justifications are equally as bad as those of generations of military generals who have slaughtered their way through the ages?

Yes, what the British did in a number of places was wrong, and that particular empire's behaviour should be addressed. I'm not sure where you plucked that statement that all Germans in uniform should have been killed (don't recall having said that). I don't hold with killing POW's, for example. I'm saying that people who find the NAZIs cool and interesting aren't considering what they were all about.

I did say, once that the purpose and goal of our servicemen in WW2 was to kill as many Germans as possible. Like Sherman said, the crueler war is, the sooner the thing is over, and there's no use in trying to reform it.

 

[Italian-wiseguy]

re: The Romans and Mongols.

The Romans were absolutely without scruples; if you defied them you could expect them to arrive armed, a lot of people would die and a good portion would be sold off as slaves. Then they would rule you. What that usually meant was that you had to pay them taxes or labor for them. .

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but actually I think there were a lot of exceptions to the rule you describe.
Obviously conquered peoples had to pay taxes (most of the cases, this meant they simply changed one lord with another), but I'd say that slaughter and mass slavery were exceptions more then rule.

I'm a doctorate in Greek Philology so ancient times are my province, I've had to have my exams on Roman History, Archeology and Epigraphy;
which btw meant I know that 2/3 of italian population of the late empire was of former slaves (greek names) mostly coming form eastern mediterranean.

Which wasn't really a problem, since roman identity has never been an "ethnic" one (amongst the very first latin writers we have a gaul, a carthaginian and a greek, just to say: the three most important enemies of Rome...)

Ciao!!

 

[Chas]

The average German solider/sailor/airman in World War II was not a nazi. He was a German fighting for his country.

I personally don't collect or reenact German, but I can understand why someone would. Sharp uniforms, good weapons, and if you leave politics out of it, brilliant leadership.

I abhor what the Nazis did to other people as much as anyone, but to blame the average fighting man, the victim of conscription or government propaganda, for the atrocities committed is absurd. If you must vilify someone, vilify the SS, the SA, and the Gestapo. Vilify the true criminals in military uniforms, the military arms of the Nazi party.

Do I get upset when I see a Heer unit march by, backs straight, their leader singing a German marching song? No. In fact, I usually admire how authentic many of the German reenactors impressions are.

I do, however, get a bit irked when I see a group of "living historians" in black SS uniforms, half of them with tattoos of death's heads and lightning runes, seig heiling each other and talking about the glorious third reich, regardless of their authenticity levels.

There are certainly those in the historical community who are Nazi sympathizers. But that doesn't make them all bad. The important thing is that the true historians seperate themselves from the bad apples.

You can't take the NAZI out of the German war machine in WW2. The Wehrmacht were responsible for their share of atrocities.

You forget that every German soldier, sailor and airman was required to swear a loyalty oath to Hitler. Not to the German people, country or constitution. To Hitler himself. That means that they were part of his program.

@StetsonHomburg: I have more sense (which is how it's actually spelled) in my fingernail clippings than you will ever have in your whole life.

 

[Derek WC]

Chas, I am interested in the history of the Heer, not the NSDAP or the SS...
And I have hated you ever scince I joined this forum! And for your information I have seen Dachau (The first Concentration camp) and It was
very sad and it was terrible! But there is a difference between things like
the north africa campaign (The war without hate as know by other historians) and the SS-Death camps!

I'd like to smack you over the head chas and knock some sence into you!

Those are unwise words to be said on The Fedora Lounge, friend.

I would recommend anyone looking at this thread have a gander at the FAQ, to make it easier; http://www.thefedoralounge.com/FAQ.html#politics

At the top of the screen is about the policy regarding to politics, and the bottom of the screen (Not the page) is regarding free speech.

 

[Tango Yankee]

To the NAZIphile I would say this - go visit Buchenwald or Auschwitz. If you come back and still think that the SS and The NAZIs were all cool and badass, honorable and all that, then fill your boots.

Not a single person has posted that they think the Nazis and the SS were cool and badass, quite the opposite. We are making a distinction between the Nazis and the regular German army. You are refusing to acknowledge that such a distinction exists. Refuse all you want; it won't change the fact.

And yes, I've been to a concentration camp. They are powerful places.

I've been other places in Germany, as well. I've even been assigned to a squadron at Rhein-Main Air Base with the squadron headquartered in a former German Air Force building--one that survived the war because the bomber that would have taken it out was shot out of the formation prior to dropping it's load. That's neither here nor there, but it's as applicable as whether or not I've been to a concentration camp.

The United States has it's own shameful episodes of attempted genocide. The American Indian comes to mind.

We have deliberately killed civilians. Dresden. Tokyo. Etcetera.

We do not think of ourselves as inherently evil having all of this in our past, but I'm sure there are some that do believe we as a nation are evil.

I'm not sure where your singlemindedness on this subject comes from, but it's certainly not one that's based on knowing what you are talking about.

Regards,
Tom

PS I am a long-time fan of at least one thing to come out of that regime: the pre-1967 Volkswagon!

 

[Italian-wiseguy]

You forget that every German soldier, sailor and airman was required to swear a loyalty oath to Hitler. Not to the German people, country or constitution. To Hitler himself. That means that they were part of his program.

Ok, but how comes that still, with or without the oath they were forced to swear (I don't think they had any chance to choose otherwise), many german soldiers weren't brutes and didn't commit any atrocity?

Remember, I'm living in a territory that's been allied, then occupied by Germans, and I know what I'm talking about, if not otherwise, by my what happened to my family (an antifascist one, in case you didn't read my other posts).

How comes that soldiers that had no ideas of Third Reich's ideology were even more feared?
How comes that even soldiers fighting on the right side, in armies of democratic countries, did on occasion commit war crimes?

You simply can't put all the germans together under the label "criminals in uniform" cause they were on the wrong side.

Ciao!!

 

[W4ASZ]

Whoa !

I find it disturbing that I see before me shrill and abusive comments made by people whose observations I have come to value in the short time I have been in the FL.

Each of you has too much class for this, and I hope apologies are forthcoming.

 

[StetsonHomburg]

I find it disturbing that I see before me shrill and abusive comments made by people whose observations I have come to value in the short time I have been in the FL.

Each of you has too much class for this, and I hope apologies are forthcoming.

Well I probably should apologies. Chas, I am sorry for what I have previously said to you. And sorry for tarnishing the name of the FL!

 

[Chas]

@TangoYankee: Yes, we killed civilians. That has been a feature of war ever since there was such a thing. Civilians have always suffered, and in a way they are legitimate targets. The civilian in the field or factory is what keeps an army in the field. Which is one reason why war should always be the last answer. Re: The Wehrmacht- I suggest you do some research on the history of Wehrmacht atrocities. All branches of the German war machine were NAZI-fied. I'm not so sure that you know what you're talking about. What's the source of my loathing of NAZIs and the people who love them?

How about a love for human decency and justice? An abiding respect for the truth? Good enough?

I agree with you about VW bugs. They're great little cars. Personally, I like very much most of the Germans I meet. Pretty cool people, if I was to assess them as a group.

As far as Canada (my country) goes, we have apologized for our misdeeds against the natives, Chinese immigrants, the Nisei. I am very aware of that history.

@Italian-wiseguy- the NAZIs committed atrocities in Italy. It doesn't matter what branch or where they served, anybody who served in the German war machine was fighting Hitler's war. The Germans allowed him to sieze power and do everything that he said he as going to do. They believed in the lies about the Jews, Bolsheviks and the "stab in the back", Jewish Freemasonry, etc etc. And they bear the same responsibility.

As far as insulting people goes, well, all I have ever done here is to state opinions that have been well thought out and carefully considered. If I am hated for hating NAZIs and their fans, then I welcome their hatred. I will sleep well tonight.

 

[StetsonHomburg]

@TangoYankee: Yes, we killed civilians. That has been a feature of war ever since there was such a thing. Civilians have always suffered, and in a way they are legitimate targets. The civilian in the field or factory is what keeps an army in the field. Which is one reason why war should always be the last answer. Re: The Wehrmacht- I suggest you do some research on the history of Wehrmacht atrocities. All branches of the German war machine were NAZI-fied. I'm not so sure that you know what you're talking about. What's the source of my loathing of NAZIs and the people who love them?

How about a love for human decency and justice? Good enough?

As far as Canada (my country) goes, we have apologized for our misdeeds against the natives, Chinese immigrants, the Nisei. I am very aware of that history.

@Italian-wiseguy- the NAZIs committed atrocities in Italy. It doesn't matter what branch or where they served, anybody who served in the German war machine was fighting Hitler's war. The Germans allowed him to sieze power and do everything that he said he as going to do. They believed in the lies about the Jews, Bolsheviks and the "stab in the back", Jewish Freemasonry, etc etc. And they bear the same responsibility.

Was that an apology back?

 

[Derek WC]

Well I probably should apologies. Chas, I am sorry for what I have previously said to you. And sorry for tarnishing the name of the FL!

*The sound of angels singing in the distance* lol

This is quite the caustic, and volatile thread.

I am generally the opposite of emotional, but talking about Nazi's really sparks something inside me.

If this were a truely great thread, we would all be talking about this like mature gentlemen, and model the men of the era we all know and love.

Germans are not bad people. Nazi's are. When I say Germans, I mean Germans, same with Nazi's.

 

[WW2WaltUSMC]

Chas, to this day, all servicemen in this nation swear an oath. Mine, like the majority of the veterans here, went like this:

I, *state your name*, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same. I will obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, in accordance with regulations, and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me, God.

My oath swears me to the Constitution (the government and nation), and to FOLLOW THE ORDERS of the officers appointed over me. The German soldier's oath to Hitler swore him to Hitler AND Germany. If you look at it from the soldier's perspective, he was swearing fealty to the nation and the government. Same as I did when I joined the Marine Corps. The fact that WITHOUT THE AVERAGE SOLDIER'S KNOWLEDGE the German government was ordering it's radical elements to commit atrocities has no bearing on the fact that most German soldiers were honorable, patriotic Germans who answered their country's call to arms. Grow up and learn to separate the true historical fact from the ideology, and the military aspect from the political.

Oh, and I am in no way affiliated with any German reenacting outfit, nor a collector of Wehrmacht militaria. I am simply a student of military history who appreciates a fellow warrior, regardless of his political affiliation.

 

[Italian-wiseguy]

Chas

I understand your point of view but I still can't completely agree.
First of all, cause not only the Germans committed atrocities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II

I'm not a jurist and I have no idea if serving in a democratic army, while committing a crime, should be considered an extenuating rather than an aggravating circumstance.

But also, still many Germans found a way not to commit any crime, while simply serving as soldiers in a war. On the wrong side, obviously.

Ciao!

 

[Chas]

Yes, we can disagree without being disagreeable. I am aware of the thread you posted, and it was posted with the intention of drawing the conclusion that the Allies and the Germans were the same or similar at some level. What is important to understand is that there was never a policy of genocide or intention on the Allied side. It is not what we were fighting the war for.

Which is inane hogwash. That, and I disagree with the inclusion of the dropping of the atom bombs being called atrocities. But that is for another thread, and another forum.

The killing of a handful of German POWs in a few scattered incidents in NW Europe over the span of a couple of years is like comparing a cup of tea to a lake. Not even close, my friend. The Germans deliberately starved to death millions of Russian POWs. To draw some sort of similarity is ludicrous.

 

[StetsonHomburg]

Yes, we can disagree without being disagreeable. I am aware of the thread you posted, and it was posted with the intention of drawing the conclusion that the Allies and the Germans were the same or similar at some level.

Which is inane hogwash.

The killing of a handful of German POWs in a few scattered incidents in NW Europe over the span of a couple of years is like comparing a cup of tea to a lake. Not even close, my friend.

Still waiting for a public appology, I was kind enough to admit I said wrong
and I appoligies for it, so why can't you?

 

[Italian-wiseguy]

Chas

I never intended to say that the Axis armies and the Allied ones were on the same level.
I clearly stated that there was a right and a wrong side, and these were right or wrong for a reason.

I only disagree with the demonization of the whole of the german soldiers of the period;

also, as this thread was started about the idea "is it correct or not to colelct/compare/speak about german militaria", my general opinion is that everyone is entitled to study and collect german uniforms, if this is his interest, and this doens't make him a nazi.

I personally know open minded, democratic and antiracist people who collect weapons, including german ones!
One of them is currently living in Israel, go figure.

Ciao!

 

[Carnage]

The killing of a handful of German POWs in a few scattered incidents in NW Europe over the span of a couple of years is like comparing a cup of tea to a lake. Not even close, my friend. The Germans deliberately starved to death millions of Russian POWs. To draw some sort of similarity is ludicrous.

In my mind both are equally abhorrent, and all harkens to that mindset of "oh well, as long as torturing this chap saves one XYZish life then it's OK"...

 

[Chas]

OK, I'm putting this to bed 'cause I need to go practice my sax.

I'm of the opinion that the WW2 subforum should be shut down. Now, I know that I don't have to read threads on Wehrmacht this or Kriegsmarine that, but I do not feel that this forum, The FL, needs that. There are lots of web forums for people to join, and more than a few dedicated to the 3rd Reich.

I just see red when I see that stuff posted here, because, believe it or not, looking at that poop is not what I come to the FL for. I am not here to joust with Third Reich-ophiles. If I see it, it makes my blood boil.

I'd like to think that there are sooo many positive and proactive things about the 20s, 30's, 40's and 50's to discuss and learn about without paying attention to WW2. That war was ugly and unneccessary.

 

[StetsonHomburg]

OK, I'm putting this to bed 'cause I need to go practice my sax.

I'm of the opinion that the WW2 subforum should be shut down. Now, I know that I don't have to read threads on Wehrmacht this or Kriegsmarine that, but I do not feel that this forum, The FL, needs that. There are lots of web forums for people to join, and more than a few dedicated to the 3rd Reich.

I just see red when I see that stuff posted here, because, believe it or not, looking at that poop is not what I come to the FL for. I am not here to joust with Third Reich-ophiles.

I'd like to think that there are sooo many positive and proactive things about the 20s, 30's, 40's and 50's to discuss and learn about without paying attention to WW2. It was ugly and unneccessary.

What ever, I still appologies and you call my a Naziphile and a Third Reich-Ophile? Sir your not going to be very popular here anymore!

 

[Chainsaw]

I believe you may have serious issues. Perhaps you should see a therapist.

Your being a disrespectful little puke. If this is a example of the types of people that stand behind the Nazi's, then I can say they lost the war because they have no maners, and weren't properly trained.

At least the Italians lined up to spit on Mussolini after he was dead!