Stetson Bowler

[Levallois]

I just bought this and I'd like to learn more about it. I did a search and didn't see anything pertinent. Here are some photos:

The red tag under the sweatband has block 543, depth 50/4 and finish "cle offery" - the "To Duplicate Mention" tag has X78988 and the price tag (maybe)- I couldn't get a good photo of this - has 30519 and 3 50. It's a 7 1/2 long oval. The "Grand Prize 1900 Paris" stamp is interesting as is the coat of arms with intertwined M and W?

It seems very well made and is very firm with tightly curled edges. The seller said it was bought in 1909? Any info. on the bowler would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

John

 

[Levallois]

No Stetsonologists want to wade in on this derby or bowler? I wonder if it ever had a liner? There is no evidence for one. It does have the small area of holes punched in the top for ventilation. If nobody has an opinion on the hat itself, how about how to clean the white spotted substance from the felt? Thanks!

John

 

[feltfan]

Certainly I have an opinion. My opinion is
that it is a very nice hat. Love the printing
and embossed pattern on the sweatband.
BTW, the ribbon was no doubt frayed that
way on purpose.

If there are vent holes as you describe (presumably
the standard "cross" of holes in the center of the crown)
then it didn't have a liner.

The "MW" logo would be the seller. Montgomery Ward?
You might research their old logos. Here's one old one:

Unfortunately, doesn't quite match.

I don't have a lot of experience taking spots off hats
(and some of my hats show that). There is, however,
a lot of information about that on this forum. I recommend
the Search function. Search for "Scout's" or "Naphtha".

 

[Levallois]

feltfan - Monty Ward is a good guess. However, I was looking at the mark with the lion and unicorn and realized that it is a royal coat of arms - in fact, it is the royal coat of arms used by the UK sovereign in Scotland as the unicorn is on the left (first position) and the lion is on the right (opposite of the English version). So who the heck is MW? A hat retailer in Scotland?

John

 

[jamespowers]

It might well be as old as the seller says it is. It is quite an old Stetson mark and the other initials are those of the shop that sold the hat originally as far as I can tell from the pictures. Normally something like that was accompanied by more specific text but there doesn't appear to be any in your case.
It is a very good size for its time and in decent condition. The tight curl on the brim edge is an art that has been lost as far as I can tell from reviewing modern bowlers and homburgs. You have a very nice example there. Enjoy it.

 

[jimmy the lid]

The sweatband certainly suggests that the lid may well go back to the early 1900's. Nicely done, Levallois!

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Levallois]

James and JtL,

Thank for the confirmation opinions about the age - makes me feel a little easier.

The more I look at the makers mark, the more I think feltfan might be right about the Montgomery Ward connection. The logo he found has an ampersand above the intertwined M and W and a Co below them. It isn't clear from the photo above, but so does my hat. I've got an 1894-1895 MW repro. catalog and there are no Stetsons (so named) in there but the derby-bowlers go for about $3.00 each. If this one was indeed $3.50 around 1909 then that would fit pricewise. Unfortunatey, no logo like this in the catalog but it's about 15 years too early.

At any rate, I wanted a bowler and I've got one. Here is a photo of the pattern of holes in the top of the hat.

John

 

[Levallois]

Since I plan on wearing my derby for SASS shoots and Cowboy action events the following is an interesting premise:

http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2008/03/quotation-real-hat-of-old-west.html

John

 

[jamespowers]

Since I plan on wearing my derby for SASS shoots and Cowboy action events the following is an interesting premise:

http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2008/03/quotation-real-hat-of-old-west.html

John

That is really quite true. Doc Holiday wore a homburg not a "cowboy hat."
The bowler from back then had a slightly longer brim than yours though. It was or course more functional as a hat for the weather with the longer brim.
Here's a little know picture of a pretty notorious guy with a bowler on:

His bowler probably looked something like this up close:

There was also the "Amish Bowler" available at the time:

Good luck finding one of these though. [huh]
Bowlers were still popular well into the teens and twenties before the Fedora took over as witnessed by this 1913 ad:

and this 1906 ad:

Ok, I admit it. I have a certain love for the bowler and have done quite a bit of research. I have about a dozen to prove it.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Ok, I admit it. I have a certain love for the bowler and have done quite a bit of research. I have about a dozen to prove it.

Then you'd know that in America, the proper term is Derby!lol

Just giving you a hard time, J.

Brad

 

[jamespowers]

Then you'd know that in America, the proper term is Derby!lol

Just giving you a hard time, J.

Brad

Derby, Coke, Bowler they are all the same hat named after different people.

 

[MrFusion]

Call 'em what you will, I love em! :eusa_clap
(but I could never pull one off... [huh] )

Nice find Levallois!

 

[scotrace]

The Stetson Derby you now own is much like mine.
The sweat looked like that, but it has been lost.
Any derby in a size that big is a rarity, especially if marked LO.

 

[Levallois]

scotrace,

That's a damn shame about your derby! That's why I don't lend stuff to friends or neighbors. If something like this happens then we can no longer be friends or friendly neighbors.

"marked LO" ?? - you'll have to forgive me but what does LO stand for? And where would it be marked?

John

 

[jamespowers]

The Stetson Derby you now own is much like mine.
The sweat looked like that, but it has been lost.
Any derby in a size that big is a rarity, especially if marked LO.

They are indeed rare at that size and age. Most bowlers were pretty much beat down and used up. The larger ones were no exception but there were less of them in the first place. A tip of the old bowler to you all:

 

[MrFusion]

scotrace,

That's a damn shame about your derby! That's why I don't lend stuff to friends or neighbors. If something like this happens then we can no longer be friends or friendly neighbors.

"marked LO" ?? - you'll have to forgive me but what does LO stand for? And where would it be marked?

John

LO = Long Oval

 

[jamespowers]

scotrace,

That's a damn shame about your derby! That's why I don't lend stuff to friends or neighbors. If something like this happens then we can no longer be friends or friendly neighbors.

"marked LO" ?? - you'll have to forgive me but what does LO stand for? And where would it be marked?

John

Long oval for the long headed.
This

would be anyone who returned a bowler to me like that.

 

[Levallois]

Thanks for the education. Well it is definitely a "long oval" or it never would have fit my melon. The only markings I see are what I thought were "cle" and "offery" on the red and white Stetson tag - looking at the hand written letters "cle" could just be "lo" written with style as the "c" isn't fully formed and might be the beginning of the "l" and the cursive "e" doesn't have a tale and could be an "o". I haven't a clue what "offey" really is?

30519 might be the MW catalog number - I'm working on this.

James - beautiful grey bowler, by the way.

John

 

[Levallois]

No luck on the Monty Ward catalog number. I noticed there is a book on the history of Stetson - anybody have this book and is it helpful in terms of dating their hats, including this derby?

Also, for you viewing pleasure - apparently the Old West could be hard on a derby:

John

 

[feltfan]

No luck on the Monty Ward catalog number. I noticed there is a book on the history of Stetson - anybody have this book and is it helpful in terms of dating their hats, including this derby?

I assume you're referring to the Snyder book. I have it.
It's not very useful in dating much. The author is more
interested in assigning prices, inexplicably, given that
books stick around a while and prices change. As a price
guide it's a total bust.

All that said, on page 60 (with a picture of a derby)
there is a reference to the 1910 the Montgomery Wards catalog.