Sport coat and jeans??

[Benproof]

"It's favoured by many dandies - anarchodandies in particular."

Lol...I definitely need to get me a contemporary education. I think I can work that one out. Being so unfashionable, I just don't notice these regional London trends. I mean, Shoreditch, Soho and Belgravia are all very nice places, but I never spend enough time anywhere to notice these form a trend as such:

https://londonparticulars.wordpress.com/tag/anarcho-dandyism/

I liked this explanation:


"Chappism has become more mainstream in recent years, I suspect due to the surge in popularity of vintage fashion.

I suspect Doctor Who has played no small part in this either. First we had the determinedly 1940s-styled Captain Jack Harkness, then we had the rather wonderful Eleventh Doctor, played by Matt Smith. This character has singlehandedly revived the British tweed industry – tweed jackets are now popular even among non-Chaps. Although The Chap was quick to find fault with his use of clip-on braces. Should have buttons on his trousers, you see.
"
Retro fashion is an odd thing. First it was the teddy boys harking back to Edwardian fashion in rebellion against the conservatism of the 1950s, now the Chaps hark back to the conservatism of the 1950s in rebellion against the conspicuous consumption and facelessness of the 21st century. What goes around, comes around."


Tweed I'm starting to like a lot. Clip on braces are a disaster. I don't know how anyone can expect these not to ruin their trousers as the article suggests. Strangely, the bow tie feels more out of place for me than a pair of jeans with tweed. I suppose for "The Doctor", it helps add to his air of eccentricity.

 

[Dirk Wainscotting]

The sad thing is that all Matt Smith's coats were from China and not even tweed (specialist cloth that it is). 'Chap' followers, or the 'young fogey' movement that preceded it, is stylistically appealing to me, but one of its vocal followers is Michael Gove and that really puts me off.

 

[Benproof]

That's depressing, but typical of television programs,especially sci-fi e where they buy in cheap props with little attention to heritage or detail.

I was too busy living on my motorcycle to care about what I look like off the motorcycle. No idea what those movements are. My young niece told me in a random conversation about her tortured evening out with some friends, how they had to share the same floor space as "awful hipsters". Asked her was it possible some hipsters were alright. She barffed laughing then solemn shift: "No. You wouldn't like them".

Bartender Edit: No contemporary politics, please!

 

[Edward]

http://www.tweedrun.com/

Yes it does seem that the tweed cut and fit and way it's worn really contributes to whether it looks like a historical relic worn as a costume, instead of a contemporary piece of clothing which can blend in post-modern comfortable. See how they all wear tweeds!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ish-takes-place-London-fifth-anniversary.html

Looks like London is a strong epicentre for tweed culture. Not many tweed and jeans in the photos which I can see. Many brogues and newsboy caps though.

The Tweed Run is a lot of fun -= you'll see several tribes among them who like to wear tweed - the hardcore vintage herd, the Chap scene, the Young Fogeys, and even, yes, the Hipsters though I gather the 'vintage' element of the London hipster scene isn't what itg was - in any case, they do tend to focus more on the workwear element).

"It's favoured by many dandies - anarchodandies in particular."

Lol...I definitely need to get me a contemporary education. I think I can work that one out. Being so unfashionable, I just don't notice these regional London trends. I mean, Shoreditch, Soho and Belgravia are all very nice places, but I never spend enough time anywhere to notice these form a trend as such:

https://londonparticulars.wordpress.com/tag/anarcho-dandyism/

I liked this explanation:


"Chappism has become more mainstream in recent years, I suspect due to the surge in popularity of vintage fashion.

I suspect Doctor Who has played no small part in this either. First we had the determinedly 1940s-styled Captain Jack Harkness, then we had the rather wonderful Eleventh Doctor, played by Matt Smith. This character has singlehandedly revived the British tweed industry – tweed jackets are now popular even among non-Chaps. Although The Chap was quick to find fault with his use of clip-on braces. Should have buttons on his trousers, you see.
"
Retro fashion is an odd thing. First it was the teddy boys harking back to Edwardian fashion in rebellion against the conservatism of the 1950s, now the Chaps hark back to the conservatism of the 1950s in rebellion against the conspicuous consumption and facelessness of the 21st century. What goes around, comes around."


Tweed I'm starting to like a lot. Clip on braces are a disaster. I don't know how anyone can expect these not to ruin their trousers as the article suggests. Strangely, the bow tie feels more out of place for me than a pair of jeans with tweed. I suppose for "The Doctor", it helps add to his air of eccentricity.

Yes, I've never liked clip-ons myself. Too unreliable, and if a button does come off, it's a lot easier to replace than a broken clip. (I tend to favour button flies over zips, when given the option, for much the same reason). Matt Smith's Doctor definitely did a lot to popularise bow ties, but they were already significantly in abundance across the Chap subculture (where many weren't impressed by Smith's efforts as a lot of them were of the pre-tied variety. Most hardcore Chappists would regard that as cheating rather. My own main objection to the preties is that they help perpetuate the notion that tying a real bow tie is 'hard', and to be avoided - when, of course, in reality it's as easy as a four in hand knot once you learn it).

I've been doing bows with tweeds for years.... but then my biggest style-influences remain Professors Henry Jones Junior and Senior, and Bogart. And they all did it...

The blogs assertion that "Chappism" has become more mainstream is perhaps misguided; some of the trappings we wear certainly have been enjoying a moment in the mainstream fashion sun, but I don't personally believe that brings Chappism any more into the mainstream than Ramones T-shirts on sale in TopShop mean that Punk Rock is the defining musical trend of the day. Chappism is much more than a dress code (in fact, the dress code is largely an in-joke, butg thats another story...).

The sad thing is that all Matt Smith's coats were from China and not even tweed (specialist cloth that it is).

I remember this being reported in The Chap, of all places. I can see both sides to the argument. Made in Savile Row would be lovely, of course, and there's a strong argument for the BBC to showcase British manufacture in its programmes. The thing about television production, though, is that 'cheaper' will always be considered 'better'. In order to make sure they were covered for costume for a lead role like that, they'll have needed maybe half a dozen for Smith -plus another for stuntman, if any was used (I don't recall whether this was the case). UK manufacture will shoot the price up forf those at a rapid rate of knots, as compared to China. Given that the BBC is always under pressure to be seen to be keepnig costs down too, I can totally see why they'd do that, even if I agree it's a shame.

FWIW, I believe the original jacket which was replicated in China was indeed a vintage Harris tweed number of Smith's own, which he had worn to the audition. My favourite of his costumes was actually the more Edwardian look he sported towards the end of his tenure; very akin to a true Teddy Boy look from the original fifties generation.

'Chap' followers, or the 'young fogey' movement that preceded it, is stylistically appealing to me, but one of its vocal followers is Michael Gove and that really puts me off.

Two very different beasts. Young Fogeys rebel against modern times by fetishising the past, including a very pronounced affection for all elements of a bygone era - the British Empire, the establishment, the class system, and certainly some of the nastier politics and social attitudes of the era. It's a conscious show of rejecting "political correctness" by studiously attempting to become everything that a "pc gone mad" world, in their minds, unfairly rejects. Chappism, on the other hand, is a very different beast altogther. It has been decribed as "punks in tweed", which probably isn't far off. The joy in the elements of the past and the wardrobe it celebrates is very real, but it is most avowedly not about a desire to return to or wholly recreate the past - rather, as Gustav Temple himself put it, it is about "retaining what was good about the past, without the bigotry and the bloodsports." A Chap will be civil and good mannered because Chaps think that is a good thing to be - not because it's old fashioned, and they want to be old fashioned. It's a wholly different philosophy. Yong Fogeys also lack the more dadaist surrealism of the Chap movement - indeed, many of them fail to understand it, as you can see when an element of them turn up anywhere claiming to be Chaps. Young Fogeys want to be Randolph Churchill. Chaps would rather be Oscar Wilde.

An aristocratic acquaintance of a Chappist friend once saide of The Chap:

"I can't quite tell whether it's for people like me, or whether it's taking the p*** out of people like me."

The only answer, of course, is that it's a] both, and b] if you don't see that, then it's not for you. Chappism cocks a snook at authority. Young Fogeyism celebrates it. Young Fogies aspire to the aristocratic lifestyle; Chappism says "Why can't we all live like that?". Another key difference is that while a Young Fogey may make a conscious show of never wearing brown in town, Chaps will do so in deliberate defiance of such notions of dresscode.

I think that about covers it.

As for Gove... Let's not get into contemporary politics, such being verboten in the Lounge. Rest assured, however, he is not a Chap. He has expressed enjoyment of the music of Chap-Hop artist Mr B The Gentleman Rhymer, but that's the height of it. And a lot of people like what they think is a novelty act without getting into a 'scene'. In any case, why would you let one individual for whom you do not care put you off a whole scene involving thousands of people?

 

[Edward]

I was too busy living on my motorcycle to care about what I look like off the motorcycle. No idea what those movements are. My young niece told me in a random conversation about her tortured evening out with some friends, how they had to share the same floor space as "awful hipsters". Asked her was it possible some hipsters were alright. She barffed laughing then solemn shift: "No. You wouldn't like them".

It's very easy, I find, to sneer at the hipsters - a lot of them are dreadfully pretentious people. But then, y'know, they're in their early twenties, and isn't everybody at that age? Hipsterism is a very wide tent, though. It covers everything from those who overlap significantly with the vintage scene. Mostly into the workwear stuff, they help keep alive a lot of the vintage repro stuff we're all interested in. Often mocked for their 'artisan this and that' (which can be pretty funny), they do appreciate the sort of 'authentic heritage' stuff as we do - the main difference being they seem more prepared to shell out the big bucks to pay for it. Sometimes I think they're doing more to keep some vintage stuff alive than a lot of the 'vintager than thou' end of our own camp. Some of them look great. Other hipsters look like all the worst end of a Generation Game contestant trying to make a New Romantic outfit out of the prizes on the conveyor belt in under a minute. While blindfolded. Still, better that than this "Normcore" thing, which is utter Coldplay Chic. Bland by numbers.

The one end of the hipster thing I just can't get my head round at all are those who do everytihng ironically. Let's wear this - it's hideous. That's hilarious. Let's drink/eat this - it's cheap and naff, that's hilarious. Let's go to this place, it's rubbish, that's hilarious. Let's watch/ listen to this, it's awful, that's hilarious. I can appreciate a bit of kitsch irony as much as the next person, but when you get to the point where your entire life has to be ironic, sometimes to the point of sneering, it must be unpleasant. We were pretentious as all hell in my day, I'm sure, but we really loved whatever it was. This end of hipsterism is just so utterly cynical, it seems terribly empty to me. I also sometimes wonder how much they're really sneering, and how much irony is a safety cover to indulge in something with the excuse of irony in case everyone else thinks it isn't cool. I'm all on board with what Dave Grohl said recently when he rejected the notion of "guilty pleasures" - if you like it, enjoy it, and don't be made to feel bad about that because somebody else thinks it's naff.

 

[MisterCairo]

a lot of them are dreadfully pretentious people. But then, y'know, they're in their early twenties, and isn't everybody at that age?

Nope!

 

[Dirk Wainscotting]

Hipsterism is a very wide tent, though.

Perhaps if we kick away some of the middle supports it might collapse...

Seriously though, 'hipster' no longer seems to have any solid meaning. Even I have been called a hipster! At a garden party last summer I was told some people referred to me as "that hipster with the hat on". What does it even mean any more? You see the narrow jeans/jacket and men's handbag crowd called 'hipsters' and the semi-goth kids called 'hipsters', and it is also applied to other people.

Chappism is appealing to me, but I find it hard to follow any of these kinds of movements seriously. I see people fetishising workwear and it seems idiotic to me when I grew up with more than half the people around me wearing it non-ironically for their jobs. I see people following a mini tweed religion and then remember my dad wearing tweed as practical, though stylish, clothing (as he still does). And then a movement to 'have manners'...Christ, people should practise good manners anyway. There's a little too much managed culture going on. Marx wrote (in his Louis Bonaparte book) that "most revolutions are carried on in dead men's clothes..." and you see a lot of this in 21st century culture...quite literally.

 

[Benproof]

Incredibly fascinating synopsis Edward! Thank you!

I think I understand a little more now about the recent fashion trends. Like Dirk, chappism seems more appealing to me too, although at the core, I have little love for anything decorative and I guess I like the laissez faire workwear ethic, but not the bizarre norm-core trends. Btw my niece isn't out of school yet, and she already has a strong dislike of the hipsters who are much older than her. I recall hearing "it was cool to be hip" but I always associated that with some kind of pelvic swing and belly dancing with very little clothes on lol.

Okkk...right, all of those things I find rather awful to look at, let alone aspire to. Beards...I can't stand any more than 3 days growth (vestigial rebellion to remind myself I'm not at work). Cycling, I can't stand and find more dangerously vulnerable than motorcycling. Now I won't dare to ride anywhere in London after an old lady wonked me into concussion by throwing her car door open without looking and several taxi drivers t-boned me doing their U turns with no indicators. Ankle crop trousers are infuriating - the mere thought of their smelly feet wafting around the pure air around me is enough to make me move tables away from anyone like that in summer. Man bags, I've only ever wanted one in tweed, but it was sold out by the time I got around to noticing they existed. Commercial coffee and especially the "cappucino" is something to put up with rather than enjoy, when proper hand pressed coffee is still the goal standard, not some silly plunger cafetiere which leaves the coffee lukewarm. But the whole artifice around a way of living - 'alternative consumerism', and being eco-friendly by not shaving to waste water; cycling to save on carbon footprint (and getting killed or lung disease in the process) is quite laudable. Well the 'tweed run' - where does that fit? since tweed is a fabric, it seems to be strangely uniting all the cross-cultural groups of proto-hipsters, tweedsters, fogeys young and old, as well as those who just like to cycle.

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/oct/03/hipster-social-phenomenon-commercial-success
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle...-beards-beanies-and-fixie-bikes-10178615.html

 

[Dirk Wainscotting]

Now I won't dare to ride anywhere in London after an old lady wonked me into concussion...

That could be severely misinterpreted.

 

[Tiki Tom]

Thanks, gents. Haven't had such a fun time reading about fashion in a long time.
If I were younger, I suppose I'd be considered an anarchodandy. As it is, I'm just a museum piece.

 

[Benproof]

That could be severely misinterpreted.

That's pretty much what she did to me as I lay sprawled over the tarmac looking very un-"hip"!

 

[Benproof]

Thanks, gents. Haven't had such a fun time reading about fashion in a long time.
If I were younger, I suppose I'd be considered an anarchodandy. As it is, I'm just a museum piece.

Edward knows all about contemporary British fashion - I'm just discovering it. But I do like museum pieces. I'm sure I had a Fossil watch some time ago before it broke. It wasn't even a proper watch - just some other OEM watch maker movement branded. Never again.

I like what I read about anarchodandies too however at the rate my tweed and jeans wardrobe is working out, I will probably end up looking less anarcho and less dandy and more like Mr Bean.

 

[Hal]

...I find it hard to follow any of these kinds of movements seriously. I see people fetishising workwear and it seems idiotic to me when I grew up with more than half the people around me wearing it non-ironically for their jobs. I see people following a mini tweed religion and then remember my dad wearing tweed as practical, though stylish, clothing (as he still does). And then a movement to 'have manners'...Christ, people should practise good manners anyway.

Hear, hear!

...the whole artifice around a way of living - 'alternative consumerism', and being eco-friendly by not shaving to waste water; cycling to save on carbon footprint (and getting killed or lung disease in the process) is quite laudable.

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[wgnovak]

i’ve never stopped wearing tweed . If I like something I wear it.

 

[Hal]

i’ve never stopped wearing tweed . If I like something I wear it.

Yes, but with jeans? To me that is incongruous - mixed message, if you like.

 

[Fading Fast]

Yes, but with jeans? To me that is incongruous - mixed message, if you like.

I respectfully have a different view, but want to emphasize that it's an opinion I'm stating. To be sure, if we are talking historically - back in the GE - was it done, then you are correct (although, I bet somewhere, a few did). But tweed was originally a sporting fabric - rough hewn, outdoorsy, work-or-sport related, etc. Jeans are also a rough fabric, like tweed, heavy on texture and not polished or refined.

So as clothing combinations and tastes evolved as did our cultural view of what is / isn't acceptable, the marriage of jeans and tweed makes sense to me as two heavy textured, sporty or work fabrics found each other in a natural way. While jeans and a tweed jacket look great (facts and circumstances assumed), jeans and a fine worsted sport coat do not as the textures and "intent" of the clothes fight each other.

If the goal is to replicate a GE look, then I agree, jeans and tweed do not work. But as an evolved aesthetic, jeans and tweed makes sense to me as the origins and textures of the clothes harmonize, IMHO. And the IMHO is key, this stuff isn't fact and I truly respect your view, just wanted to proffer another.

 

[Dirk Wainscotting]

Grey tweed jackets (or blue) with mild patterns like small herringbone, small checks, probably work with jeans. Pairing classic tweed jackets, in greens/browns with bold checks, with jeans often looks utterly foolish. I can't quite comprehend why someone would go to the effort of selecting such a coat and waistcoat (as is increasingly done) to top off a pair of crappy jeans.
It's sheer laziness. I could understand it if it was genuine use, like in the past; a functional tweed jacket and functional jeans (which can perform the same function flannels once did, though with far less panache). These are not working people or hunters though, they're middle-class city dwellers and self-appointed dandies. They look like fools.

 

[Mathematicus]

Dirk got the "golden point" that I was trying to explain time ago, probably failing thanks to my crumpled English XD
You can say jeans and tweed are functional clothes, but how dare you to call "functional" a pair of trousers which squeezes your crotch every time you bend? And what about their perfectly useless pockets? What about those jackets which sleeveheads resemble tents, to an extent that no real movement is allowed without comfort?

 

[Hal]

I sympathise with several points made by both FF and Dirk. FF makes a good point about changing styles and style paradigms, and also about the incongruity of a suit jacket with jeans. Dirk's point about people aping working-class work clothing rings all too true. I have seen, in a shop window in England, a Harris tweed jacket and waistcoat, together with untucked patterned open-necked shirt and jeans, displayed on the same mannequin and thus clearly recommended for wear together, and can only say "ugh"!
If Mathematicus is saying that the functionality (which implies comfort) of jeans is a myth, I have thought this for a long time. No doubt jeans are admirable for the purpose for which they were invented; but a garment of hard uncomfortable material, not warm enough in winter and too warm in summer, I (and no doubt many others) can well do without.

 

[Bushman]

I will say that it looks good, depending on the person. I've seen a lot of people who can pull it off. I had a friend in high school, for example, who pulled it off well, including the tweed cap, but I personally don't think it's a look I could get into. I won't say "never" though, because I've simply never tried it.