Something new at Good Wear?

[Big J]

@Technonut, thanks for running over to the GW site to check those details!
The fact that you couldn't just reel them off when I asked you an hour ago, kind of confirms that you don't really know what you bought, just that you bought into the elitist snobbery of it. LOLZ.

Apart from the thing about a vintage machine to install snaps, I can't see anything different from the other big names (and maybe the Japanese use such a machine too? I don't know).

Emperors new clothes syndrome.

 

[Big J]

@devilish, thank you for your decent answer. So, you're saying that I shouldn't see these as accurate reproductions, but rather as a kind of 'tribute' to a certain contract?
I don't mind, I'm just honestly trying to understand how a 'better' jacket can be a more accurate repro.

 

[Grayland]

@devilish
I don't mind, I'm just honestly trying to understand how a 'better' jacket can be a more accurate repro.

The whole reproduction jacket thing has always puzzled me. It's ok to copy an original, but if you copy a copy, you're a thief?

BTW - I have 2 GW, both halfbelts. I like them very much, but I don't consider them any better made than my Aero's, my Rainbow Country, my Himel, or my Bill Kelso. One of them (GW), fits me perfectly but I bought it third-hand.

 

[devilish]

Big J. No one these days can make a truly accurate repro. It just isn’t possible. The leather doesn’t exist anymore. Environmental factors in tanning processes have changed vastly, as have the livestock the skins come from. Not too mention the scarcity of original hardware. Add in the final factor, which is that to do it like the originals, you’d need a factory of hundreds or thousands of workers making the jackets piecemeal.
I’d bet no two originals were ever exact repros of one another. Just look at the differences between period contracts. They were all made to the same theoretical mil-specs and they couldn’t match each other either.
So what you get is, again, different interpretations, by different makers of the same specs. Some may get closer than others and the differences may be more subtle but that’s kind of the nature of the beast.
What I do know is that all the top makers do their best and John does go out of his way to really get close in as many ways as possible. It all comes down to horses for courses and personal choice.

 

[devilish]

Grayland, I don’t think it’s the copying that makes a thief but the way in which it’s approached. Hence the whole Aero vs Alexander/Simmons Bilt questions.

 

[Grayland]

Grayland, I don’t think it’s the copying that makes a thief but the way in which it’s approached. Hence the whole Aero vs Alexander/Simmons Bilt questions.

I agree and am just playing devils advocate.

 

[Big J]

@devilish, thanks for your reply. I think I see where you are coming from. But I think that when A-2s etc are bespoke made-to-measure, then we're kidding ourselves that accuracy is high; no issue jackets were ever made-to-measure.
There's nothing wrong with that (my A-2s are all made to measure), but the haughtiness of some people who think that their made-to-measure jacket is the most accurate, is kind of vapid considering it's an oxymoron.
I think that the 'sneer factor' of so many GW owners is the major factor that puts me off buying one; I don't want to be 'that guy'. Case in point is Technonut above. Instead of attempting to educate me as to the finer points of the jacket, he just tries to put me down with back handed compliments; horses for courses (because I'm not rich enough? I'm not a connoisseur?), or that I just don't get it (lucky me since it's oh so expensive).
That's the sneering attitude.
Kind of like the 50 year old guy parked outside Starbucks on Saturday in his bright red Viper. Or the guy who doesn't understand cameras but buys a Leica because it's the most expensive.
For me, the GW brand is kind of tainted by the attitude of some of its customers.

 

[Technonut]

@devilish, thanks for your reply. I think I see where you are coming from. But I think that when A-2s etc are bespoke made-to-measure, then we're kidding ourselves that accuracy is high; no issue jackets were ever made-to-measure.
There's nothing wrong with that (my A-2s are all made to measure), but the haughtiness of some people who think that their made-to-measure jacket is the most accurate, is kind of vapid considering it's an oxymoron.
I think that the 'sneer factor' of so many GW owners is the major factor that puts me off buying one; I don't want to be 'that guy'. Case in point is Technonut above. Instead of attempting to educate me as to the finer points of the jacket, he just tries to put me down with back handed compliments; horses for courses (because I'm not rich enough? I'm not a connoisseur?), or that I just don't get it (lucky me since it's oh so expensive).
That's the sneering attitude.
Kind of like the 50 year old guy parked outside Starbucks on Saturday in his bright red Viper. Or the guy who doesn't understand cameras but buys a Leica because it's the most expensive.
For me, the GW brand is kind of tainted by the attitude of some of its customers.

I wasn't attempting to 'put you down', or anything of the sort.. I am 54 years old, on a tight budget, and hardly rich... The 3 GW A-2's I've owned were previously-owned, and purchased for around 1/2 the cost of new ones. Out of the 3, I kept one, which does happen to fit like it was made for me...

You have taken most everything I've said out of context, and twisted it to fit your obviously biased view of GW, and it's owners.. I wouldn't wait the 18+ months for one either, even if I could afford it. My attempt to 'educate' you on the finer points of the jacket, were sincere, and hardly taken from the GW site.. It comes from my years of interest, research, and personal experience of repro A-2's over the years, long before JC started making jackets. GW just so happened to 'check all of the boxes' in terms of the detail and quality I was looking for.

Many folks here since I've joined in 2006 have read quite a few of my posts advocating less expensive alternatives to the higher-end A-2's available out there. A-2's which follow the vintage patterns, cut, proper epaulet placement, pocket placement, materials used etc... Those types of jackets are my favorite finds to post about. Hell, my favorite A-1 repro happens to be a Bronson (Chinese), which I paid around $200.00 for new, as well as my Bronson (again Chinese manufacture) B-10, which is a very good BR knock-off I paid $179.00 for new. So please don't try to paint me as an 'elite' wealthy A-2 owner / collector.

I work quite hard for my daily bread, but also have collected and owned enough A-2's (and civvy) leather jackets over many years to know detail and quality, especially when I have owned enough from various makers up and down the price scale to know the difference. Sure, I have had my share of made-to-measure jackets as well, but I had to budget and save for them... None cost me the price of a new GW however...

 

[Big J]

@Technonut, if I've got you all wrong, please accept my most sincerely apologies. Sentiments don't always read the way there were written.
But yes, I have got a bias against GW owners because so many of those I've interacted with were just so...'douchey' about it.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Good on John for doing his thing and taking leather jackets to another level. Yes, some of the fans are a bit elitist. Personally I'm not going to wait that long for a jacket to be made and I don't want to pay that much for a reproduction of a workingman's jacket. I am fortunate financially but I am thrifty and I can't enjoy paying through the nose for an item I might want to be able to wear when painting the house.

I have always enjoyed Technonut's appreciation of affordable repro A2's that are pretty accurate. It is possible for someone to make a close to accurate A2 for $400, with mismatched leather and uneven stitching. I'd get one of those.

 

[Cocker]

For me, the equation regarding JC's B-10 is pretty simple, as stated:

- I have great difficulties finding one jacket that would suit me in body and sleeve length without being baggy
- I've been looking around for 4 or 5 years, meaning I won't care about waiting 18 months more
- The only other option would be an Eastman Extra Long, but I'm not sure about the size, and they are non returnable like their regular jackets
- The price tag seems reasonable, compared to other high-end B-10 repros

So, all in all, this one is almost a no brainer for me. I don't "care" that it's done by Good Wear, or whoever else, as long as it's done to my specs and it suits me. If Aero were still offering their B-10, I would probably have gone for them.

 

[devilish]

Big J. It was me that said “horses for courses” and it was not meant to ba an elitist statement in any way. Just to point out that we are all lucky enough to have many choices to fit everyone.
In the interest of true disclosure. I have never paid full retail for the 5 different GW’s I have. Some came from eBay, one from a fellow lounger and then I’m pretty much John’s size so I fit in the samples. However that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t wait because I would.
Edit: The plus factor for me in the wait list would be that it would give me time to save. Even at my most affluent times I wouldn’t have been able to lay out full price for any of the top makers.

 

[nick123]

It's easy to think there's an elitist vibe...case in point VLJ. I always feel like the village idiot there and rarely post. BUT, many of those guys are extremely nice and welcoming if you approach with an open mind. The same guys who seem to parade GW and nothing else. You just have to let go of biases which in all honesty, are kind of inflated when on the outside looking in. Easy to fall into that trap. Many people get off to the hyper-details of jackets, and it is their joy. But those same people, most of them are pretty nice IF you're nice back. That works anywhere.

 

[ButteMT61]

I was trying to think of something to compare this to and I thought of a show I watch called "Graveyard Carz".
They do extremely accurate and expensive restores of Mopar muscle cars. Some of them are 1/1 ever made. They don't discuss costs, but I can't imagine that many of their jobs cost less than $100k.

In watching a couple seasons of this show, I've seen them do two types of restores: 1) The ultra-accurate, as it was from the factory job which means that they don't look as good as a show car would with 100 points of perfection That means overspray in the engine bay, paint that's not 8-layers of hand wet-sanded glass, etc.
2) The 100 point show car that is 10x better in every way than the cars that made it out of the showrooms for guys with a) more money than Gawd, b) the desire to polish a gem to perfection, c) more money than Gawd's wife.

I look at most of these high-end repop jacket makers as catering to the #2 guys/gals. Of course these jackets are probably 2x better than anything made "back then", but if I'm going to bother wearing a jacket, I'd rather save (having gone through a LOT of cheaper, less-appealing jackets before) and get one I really love.

I've still got some jackets that I love that were not $1500. I've got a couple that were and I love them too. It's the same with the footwear I own. I may not be able to translate the diff's between $150 boots and $700 boots here in a post, but when I'm holding and wearing and looking at them, it's obvious.

Not sure that I ever got a GW snob vibe in here, but I most certainly don't feel like a snob for owning and loving the stuff JC puts out, nor the same for Aero, LW, etc. I as well have bought a number of my jackets second-hand.
I made the point about this with jackets over at VLJ years back - that an "accurate" repro would NOT be as perfect and nice as modern jackets. It was not met with warmth, for sure. Nor would I expect a group that spends thousands to agree with me.

There's snobs, and there's that seem to have a chip - who's worse? I'd rather not read any whining from any of 'em.

2¢ tendered, no refunds.

 

[Superfluous]

The notion of a “better” jacket is profoundly subjective. For many, “better” focuses on utilitarian considerations, including durability, suitability for its intended purpose and/or level of protection (e.g., a riding jacket) – others could care less. Some focus on the accuracy of the reproduction – others could care less. Some focus on manufacturing details and craftsmanship (e.g., stitch counts and seam construction) and/or exalt use of old-world / artisan manufacturing – others could care less. Some focus on the leather itself, and consider everything else secondary. Some prefer vintage zippers – others prefer modern, heavy gauge zippers. Some eschew mass production and prefer bench made products – others could care less. For some, if the jacket fits well, everything else is secondary, and the “best” jacket is simply the jacket that fits best. For many, value and the notion of diminishing returns is an essential consideration in terms of which is a “better” jacket.

Given the subjective nature of the inquiry, and the wide variation in terms of how each of us balance the foregoing considerations (and other factors), the suggestion that a particular jacket is “better” than others has questionable merit or value. A jacket that is “better” for one person is not better to another person (and perhaps even less desirable); and vice versa. Tonz’ 52 pound suits of armor are definitely not “better” for me. On the other hand, my paper thin, disposable shirt jackets are definitely not better for Tonz.

I too am a GW/JC fan. I love the experience arising from personal interaction with the craftsman, which stays with the jacket long after the initial purpose. I love the old world manufacturing techniques employed by JC, and his artisan craftsmanship. I love his leathers – Shinki and goat. I love the infinite customization. For me, the balance offered by GW/JC works. I value Himel’s jackets for similar reasons.

Notwithstanding my praise and patronage of GW/JC, I am not suggesting that GW’s jackets are “better” than others. There are plenty of other manufacturers that do outstanding work and produce amazing jackets. Moreover, these competing jackets are often much “better” for other patrons who prioritize the subjective factors differently than I.

We live in an amazing time in terms of repro jackets. The options are endless. There is something for everyone. With a modicum of research, everyone can find their own, individual “better” jacket.

 

[Big J]

@Technonut, I really am sorry. I unfairly let you have it yesterday. It's my fault.

But the thing is, when GW owners get up in my face, the conversation always seems to go like this;

Me: What's so special about it?
Them: It's better.
Me: How?
Them: Because it's just better.
Me: How?
Them: Ahh, look, you can't understand because you're not a real connoisseur.

You see? They don't know how it's better. It's like some website told all the hipsters that GW are the 'most exclusive' due to wait times and price, and the hipsters have all decided they want a piece of that. I've had hipsters claiming to be GW owners come over and try to sneer at me about it when I'm trying to take a leak in the toilets at the train station for chrissake!

The thing is, LW owners don't act in this douchey sneering way EVER to my knowledge. Maybe all the crazy rants on Stu's website actually serve a purpose- it really does scare off the hipsters, and prevents them from tainting his brand image? I don't know. But I don't have any reservations about wearing my LW, but (like I said) wouldn't buy a GW because of 'that guy'.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I was trying to think of something to compare this to and I thought of a show I watch called "Graveyard Carz".
They do extremely accurate and expensive restores of Mopar muscle cars. Some of them are 1/1 ever made. They don't discuss costs, but I can't imagine that many of their jobs cost less than $100k.

In watching a couple seasons of this show, I've seen them do two types of restores: 1) The ultra-accurate, as it was from the factory job which means that they don't look as good as a show car would with 100 points of perfection That means overspray in the engine bay, paint that's not 8-layers of hand wet-sanded glass, etc.
2) The 100 point show car that is 10x better in every way than the cars that made it out of the showrooms for guys with a) more money than Gawd, b) the desire to polish a gem to perfection, c) more money than Gawd's wife.

I look at most of these high-end repop jacket makers as catering to the #2 guys/gals. Of course these jackets are probably 2x better than anything made "back then", but if I'm going to bother wearing a jacket, I'd rather save (having gone through a LOT of cheaper, less-appealing jackets before) and get one I really love.

I've still got some jackets that I love that were not $1500. I've got a couple that were and I love them too. It's the same with the footwear I own. I may not be able to translate the diff's between $150 boots and $700 boots here in a post, but when I'm holding and wearing and looking at them, it's obvious.

Not sure that I ever got a GW snob vibe in here, but I most certainly don't feel like a snob for owning and loving the stuff JC puts out, nor the same for Aero, LW, etc. I as well have bought a number of my jackets second-hand.
I made the point about this with jackets over at VLJ years back - that an "accurate" repro would NOT be as perfect and nice as modern jackets. It was not met with warmth, for sure. Nor would I expect a group that spends thousands to agree with me.

There's snobs, and there's that seem to have a chip - who's worse? I'd rather not read any whining from any of 'em.

2¢ tendered, no refunds.

I was thinking along similar lines, Butte, that some of the intensity surrounding the ultra well-made, stitch perfect A2 or half-belt jackets remind me of car restorations that go too far (to my sensibility). There is an element of fetishisation in this leather jacket hobby and I'm not just making a bad joke about people who are into leather. I have never had the desire to find perfection in anything and so I have never really wanted to participate in the grail jacket quest. Besides, most of my favourite objects ever cost very little and were found in thrift stores or flea markets.

 

[jonesy86]

JC is a good guy. I like what he's doing.

As far as I'm concerned he walks on water.

 

[jonesy86]

HELP!

I just saw this on the GW sale page.

http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/sale_himelracer_0001.html

It is in stock, no wait. It is exactly my size (I think). He takes credit cards.

Everyone, please tell me that I just bought an expensive jacket and can't afford another. Interest rates on credit cards are ridiculous. It's a biker jacket and I don't ride. I don't look good in black. It has too many zippers. Shinki isn't such great leather as everyone says. The teacore horsehide slowly wears to a brown shade and I already have a brown jacket. Is it a Good Wear, or a Himel, and why can't they make up their minds? The chest zipper is reproduction, and not NOS. I need a lighter jacket for California.

Is there some 24 hour help/hotline I can call?

 

[Cocker]

@jonesy86 , you just bought an expensive jacket and can't afford another. Interest rates on credit cards are ridiculous. It's a biker jacket and you don't ride. You don't look good in black. It has too many zippers. Shinki isn't such great leather as everyone says. The teacore horsehide slowly wears to a brown shade and you already have a brown jacket. Is it a Good Wear, or a Himel, and why can't they make up their minds? The chest zipper is reproduction, and not NOS. You need a lighter jacket for California.

So, does that work??