Some perspective on leather jacket pricing?

[handymike]

I've always referred to this as the "Homogenization" of our world. It's happened everywhere in the US, now it's happening elsewhere. Places are losing their unique identities as Brands take over. Globalization with only the corporate $$ winning.
On an up note- Pumpkin Spiced Lattes are back for Fall!

Oh, and I think I'll go buy a pair of blue shoelaces...

 

[Big J]

I've always referred to this as the "Homogenization" of our world. It's happened everywhere in the US, now it's happening elsewhere. Places are losing their unique identities as Brands take over. Globalization with only the corporate $$ winning.
On an up note- Pumpkin Spiced Lattes are back for Fall!

Oh, and I think I'll go buy a pair of blue shoelaces...

True. One day every city center will look like an airport departure lounge, and they will all be the same. Thank god that the internet gives a storefront with global reach to the kinds of niche products that I actually want to buy.

 

[handymike]

Another trend that really gripes me is when City governments seek to "re-vitalize" their downtown areas by creating outdoor malls. These fake "Americana" re-creations are not what city centers should represent to present and future generations. Sorry, but here in Southern California there is a lot of this going on.

 

[Justhandguns]

Another trend that really gripes me is when City governments seek to "re-vitalize" their downtown areas by creating malls. These fake "Americana" re-creations are not what city centers should represent to present and future generations. Sorry, but here in Southern California there is a lot of this going on.

It is happening everywhere. Every small town / high street here in the UK is having the same clone of shops. We have 3 Westfields here already, and I am sure there will be more of them coming. Same as in my home town Hong Kong.

 

[Edward]

Yeah, I gave my co-workers an education once while eating in a diner. I saw a guy leaving with an obvious mall offering and I mentioned it. They asked "what makes a jacket "better" than another"? I replied one quick clue is multi-panel backs... the next is elastic cinches at the waist.

Certainly was the case, though in the last couple of years the trend in the premium stuff has shifted towards multi-panel backs again, so I don't think that alone is an issue any longer (though certainly much under a certain price you'll never see a large, single-panel back). Elaticated bits of the type you mention... certainly that's not so common on high end stuff now... I've often thought about this, and sometimes it's just a 'look and feel' thing... I've owned multiple identical Perfecto style jackets over the years. The best built is the Aero, by far, but unless I have them back to back, it'd be hard, I think, to communicate the difference in quality to a novice that is apparent to us. (By way of comparison, for many years I thought Porsches were overrated, badge engineering, until my Dad acquired a 70s 911... oh, my. Can't ever see myself opting for one, but nonetheless actually experiencing it I can totally appreciate the superiority over the average runabout, on an engineering level...

One thing I notice is hardware. Very cheap jackets have shoddy zips and such. Beyond rock bottom, in the GBP100-200 range, new, you see generally quite nice hardware, but it'll be chunky and aluminium, rather than the more refined vintage styles in brass. I've never been let down by the former, but it's... different. I think this is where you start to get into the 'law of diminishing returns' - i.e. as the product becomes more expensive, the differences can become smaller and smaller. A £500 jacket is maybe twice the jcket than one at £100, a £1000 jacket a bit of an improvement on that, and so on. Beyond a certain level you quickly stop paying for the quality of the end product as a garment, and start paying for less immediately obvious (to most folks out there) things like fit, knowledge needed in terms of historical patterning, historically accurate zips and such. A lot of this is also compounded by the issue of economies of scale. For the sake of argument, if Aero or ELC had the sort of demand that would see them selling thousands of jackets a week, there will be a level at which they could radically cut their unit price based on a rise in profit against certain fixed overheads. That's the nature of the mass market vs a niche product.

Undoubtedly labour costs are a major part of it all too; if Aero upped sticks to China, they could make their jacket cheaper simply because labour costs are lower there (that's allowing for paying their workers a fair wage relative to the local economy). Frankly, I've got no time for blind, "patriotic" notions of buying goods made in X, or X made goods being superior because they have magic ingredients in that country or such, however local(ish) production is environmentally more responsible, and I like that where it's an option, plus I can be surer that the product I buy is produced ethically and in fair and safe working conditions. That, plus - and this is where I become irrational about it - I rather like buying from and supporting small businesses that really care about their product rather than big multinationals that take the Ford approach ("We don't make cars, we make money").

My impression (just an impression) is for the really expensive ones, the appeal is the price, hype, and look surrounding the product vs actual quality (a jacket which will last a lifetime, built by hand, or with good ethical practices) or historical accuracy.

When Henry Juszkiewicz took over as Gibson CEO some years ago (back in the eighties, if I recall correctly), the Les Paul, one of the most iconic electric guitars designs available, was in a sales slump. Under his management they turned it around, and it became very fashionable and widely desired once more. One of the first things he did - and one of the most significant - was to double the price. Basic marketing psychology: if you're begging me to buy your product by pricing it as low as possible and trying to convince the market it's every bit as good as the competition who are successfully selling theirs at much more, most punters might be dubious. Double the price, tell them it's the best thing ever and some will start to believe it. "I paid £2K for this" becomes "This jacket is worth £2K!" - what the analysts call perceived market value. Round these parts, we don't tend to see things that way, but many people do, and it's been proven to work time and again.

What has also been said about the psychology of 'approval' by branding is certainly very true. A certain brand being approved - by fashion, by youth tribe, whatever - definitely means that many will seek it out because of that approval. Not everyone wants to stand out from the crowd (and of those who do, many will still want to conform to the alternative norms of their chosen subculture). My girlfriend recently mentioned her schooldays, when kids in her class would go out of their way to carry their gym kit in a plastic carrier bag bearing the brand of whichever shop was most fashionable. Same thing - perception of value being based on brand rather than the item itself.

I know a girl who's regularly dropping $2000 on brand name jackets. Once I tried to talk to her about the quality of the stuff she's buying, but she concluded the conversation with - ...who would want to wear the same jacket next year?. Talk about different mindset...

I struggle more with that (clearly she has money to burn!) than people buying at the very cheapest disposable fashion places... There's some terrible exploitation goes on in the production of so much disposable fashion, but somehow its even more sickening when it's done by places who make an enormous profit per item rather than a few pence on the stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap model.

Though personally, I wouldn't mind buying a reasonably priced mall jacket if they weren't all so damn ugly. Especially in Europe.

It's hard to find good but cheaper alternatives. Silvermans in London sell some psurprisinglyh nice jackets in leather under their house brand GTH. Around GBP100 for a Perfecto type... Obviously you compromise on fit and pattern (often these jackets tend to be slightly boxier or a bit longer than vintage), and and certain details - in particular, they'll be chunky, aluminium YKK zips. Just as function as a brass Talon, but not as classy a design. In overall quality terms, though, the ones I've handled have been worryingly close to the Schotts, give the price differential....

After that, we're back to the law of diminishing returns. For me, for a jacket that will get a lot of wear, I'd prefer spending the money on the likes of an Aero, but that said, if I wanted a jacket for kicking around in, wearing to festivals, having a Ramones logo airbrushed onto... Something much cheaper does appeal. There are a lot of similar 'no-name' and smaller brand motor cycle jackets out there that will be unremarkable but very serviceable, cheaper than the premium stuff, but again they sell by keeping it simple, cheap, and selling to a bigger market...

Though, Seb Lucas made a very good point - Most expensive Vanson is $700. Model A is $500, Comet $450. What's excuse does LL/Langlitz/Aero/Schott/etc. has, again?

I think this is an economies of scale thing. Vanson is a much bigger operation than those others, so their unit price production costs will be lower, generally speaking. Also, it's a different market - they're selling fairly classically styled motorcycle jackets, certainly, but their target market is not, as a rule, people who want something vintaqge repro or care about the nitty gritty details like zips, lining material and so on - as long as it's good and it works. In that sense, their business model leaves them free to choose the cheaper option wherever possible, as long as it's up to quality spec. That's got to save them a bit here and there.

I suspect they're also only cheaper in the USA... certainly anywhere I've seen them on sale in the UK, they are at (or sometimes above) the average price for an Aero near equivalent. Lovely jackets, though. I considered a Model E(?) Perfecto style from them once, but ruled it out as there was no option to order it without side-lacing, which I dislike intensely.

This.

I love the lounge, and love leather. But I don't pretend that the amount of time and money that most loungers, myself included, have spent on researching, sizing, and purchasing leather jackets is an unqualified virtue or a purchasing model suitable to everyone.

I think we all know why we're here haunting 'outerwear' and it has a lot more to do with passion than smart economics.

Heh. I tell myself that at least this hobby is practical because I can wear it. and some of my jackets (the ones I bought used at a good price) can be sold for what I paid for them, if needsbe.... I mean, compared to the money I spent on toy soldiers over the years, or guitars...

 

[Edward]

The Mall: A pleasurable experience? Over here in the UK we have had a Mall culture for a few years now. In my part of SW England not far up the M4 there is a Mall, I occasionally drive up for a visit...the wife likes 'Super Dry' and there's a big store there, the Step Kids like 'Super Dry' too..my boss even likes 'Super Dry'...I don't but I'm in the minority around here.

Really clever brand, that one. Created by an English guy, and manufactured in, I believe, China and Vietnam.... he managed to convince a huge chunk of the world that it was a cool, hitherto unknown Japanese brand - "SuperDry JPN". So many people bought it.

I like M&S or more specifically their basic T shirts (Black & white on offer), I really like their sweatshirts in basic colors which I then take to the local seamstress....she cuts the arms off at the elbow & sews them up & I then have that 'McQueen' effect after a few washes and team them up with my Roughwear A2.

Have you looked into Sainsbury's TU line of clothing? Improbable as it sounds, some great stuff there. Very cheap, all made from fairly traded cotton. This last few months they've had a number of sweatshirts that have that very Macqueen design:

(Colours vary). http://www.sainsburys-live-well-for-less.co.uk/tu-clothing/products/men/sporty-sweatshirt/

I've been very impressed with the standard of the stuff I pick up in there. Not all of it's fantastic, but for the money I've had some great bits, especially Summer shirts, undershirts and underwear.

I get a certain pleasure wandering around the Mall leather shops & looking at their jackets & the prices, I generally pay a lot more for my my WW2 replicas but acknowledge my jacket passion was originally started at the age of 14 by a Mall type burgundy box jacket. I even come across some current Alpha Nylon flight jackets in the Mall and appreciate my originals & USA made repros even more.

I like to think of those as 'gateway drugs' - we all had to start somewhere.... Great for kids still growing, too. I was in my thirties before I had the sort of disposable income that facilitated pricier stuff; in my teens, though, when I was still growing it would have been madness to spend that on something I'd outgrow (new anyhow, right priced used might have been another matter.... *if* I'd had the cash....).

Back in the day I was a Mod & the influence of this & the 'one up man ship' that came with it (and appealed to my ego) has led to me rejecting the 'mainstream' the 'Mall' & it's kin. I've gone for the rare and exclusive & the customized. This is true of what I wear (apart from M&S underwear T-shirts & sweatshirts), drive and ride...and has cost me £££££...$$$$$ in the process.

I did the same thing, though my path went via metal to punk...

I still love wandering the Mall or as my ex Teddy Boy father would say..."going to town"

Your old man was a Ted and you still turned out a hairdryer-rider???

Different strokes for different folks, simple as that.

What choo talkin' bout, Willis?

Huh... It may sound strange, but looking at the numbers, I think Aero's actually pretty fair with their prices, seeing how much they could be asking for their stuff.

Let' hope they never get ideas about that!

A&F on the Row? That's the end of the brand image right there (I'm talking about the Savile Row 'brand' image).

Yes, that's exactly why the existing tenants opposed it. Sadly, the council could only hear A&F's $$$$$$.

Edward, yes, it's really a pity. Honestly, I just do not understand why A&F can be so big in London right now (and in Asia). They were a complete failure in North America!

They're an offensive joke, and I don't mean because of their "style" of clothing.

Very proud to note, though, that it was one of our unergraduates who took them to court, and won... (She was the young lady that they kept working out the back and refused to allow to work instore, on grounds that she didn't fit their "beauty standard". She was born with only one hand, and has a mechanical claw device of to type commonly used by folks in that situation. Wouldn't have prevented her doing the job, but looks is looks at A&F.... )

Yes, actually, there is one rather hidden but big A&F at the end of the road there. In the beginning, there was usually a small queue to get in.

The original one is actually on the next street, though they have since they opene3d called it the Saville Row branch - even though it's not the official address. This controversy was over opening a children's clothing branch right on the row itself, in the old Apple Corps building.

Yeah, I have to say that if you ignore the wider high street trends (it's still hipsters, right?), then London has got an extremely wide set of fashion subcultures, that are all extremely well catered for in terms of fashion retailers, that are constantly evolving. Compared to Tokyo, it's in a league of it's own. Japanese trends follow western high street fashion, and subcultures are fixed in stone, and show no evolution or development.
You see a lot of expensive brands in Japan, but no style. People dress so badly (my pet hate is suits with pattered shirts and clashing neck-ties) that it's hard to believe they spend so much money on themselves (at this point, I'd refer loungers to the thread about the blue leather jacket :eusa_doh.

I'd love to get to look around in Japan and see all the stuff I've drooled over online in shops. I'm sure the sting of not being able to afford most of it would be significantly lessened by the fact that most of it isn't made in my average Western size anyhow....

I don't think it is - their application was rejected by Westminster Council by all account, I believe. They wanted to modify a listed building! Idiots!

Yes, it was initially rejected, but the council have been persuaded to rethink. I believe it opens on Monday (The Chap were poised to stage a demo against it, but I think that's been cancelled since one of the Times journos ignored the embargo on the press release and printed a snotty little piece calling those opposed to A&F outdated snobs opposed to progress and such. No real point in it when it relied on the element of surprise).

I've always referred to this as the "Homogenization" of our world. It's happened everywhere in the US, now it's happening elsewhere. Places are losing their unique identities as Brands take over. Globalization with only the corporate $$ winning.

There's a lot to be said for the wisdom of Voltaire (no, not that Voltaire) on this one:

Once, long ago there was a time in what now seems a distant land
Each small boutique was precious and unique
'Cause every little thing was made by hand
Then there came a revolution
The progress of production was its aim
Now instead of one, there are many
And each costs just a penny
But every single one looks just the same

Now there's a Starbucks on every bloody corner
McDonald's on everybody's street
There's White Castle, Wendy's and Walmart
And then it all repeats
If you're the kind that looks down on the masses
Even for your there's a feint
Get some New Rocks or a pair of Docs
Look just like those who ain't

And that is how (Tell us how)
It came to be (How can it be?)
After two long centuries
That in the name (What's in a name?)
Of human greed
The industrial revolution fixed everything for me

And so now if one does well with a business
They open two more and then three
They buy in bulk in big massive hulks
At which point it's nearly free
As they grow bigger their prices get lower
Until they become a chain
The smaller stores all shutter their doors and buckle 'neath the strain

And that is how (Tell us how)
It came to be (How can it be?)
After two long centuries
That in the name (What's in a name?)
Of human greed
The industrial revolution fixed everything for everyone
It came into our lives and gave us uniformity by taking choice away from you and me)

And that is how (Tell us how)
It came to be (How can it be?)
After two long centuries
That in the name (What's in a name?)
Of human greed
The industrial revolution fixed everything for every bloody one
It came into our lives and gave us uniformity by taking choice away from you
(Taking choice away from me!)
Taking choice away from you and me

Now the machines are working tirelessly
Through all night and day
Making garbage in our image
For a world that's made our way
And they won't stop until every inch
From Peru to Bombay
Looks like a mall in the US of A

 

[Benny Holiday]

Even some people in Sydney are starting to dress better these days....we just can't usually get the decent stuff here and have to order from overseas.

Nah mate that's just you and me!:eusa_doh:

One interesting observation: a group of friends and my wife and I took our kids to see The Lion King. We went out to dinner at a nice upmarket cafe/restaurant and I dressed in a full drape zoot suit, of course, with tie and polished shoes. All the women at the Capitol Theatre were dressed to the nines, beautiful dresses and jewellery, and the men - well, it was faded jeans and T-shirts all round. What a pack of bums. It looked ridiculous, every well-dressed woman with a dopey-looking overgrown 12-year-old standing next to her. I just don't get it.

 

[Big J]

Nah mate that's just you and me!:eusa_doh:

One interesting observation: a group of friends and my wife and I took our kids to see The Lion King. We went out to dinner at a nice upmarket cafe/restaurant and I dressed in a full drape zoot suit, of course, with tie and polished shoes. All the women at the Capitol Theatre were dressed to the nines, beautiful dresses and jewellery, and the men - well, it was faded jeans and T-shirts all round. What a pack of bums. It looked ridiculous, every well-dressed woman with a dopey-looking overgrown 12-year-old standing next to her. I just don't get it.

I agree with you on that. last night I took the dog out for an hour and a half, and I was dressed like a bum; jeans, sneakers, and a sweatshirt. But when I go out with my wife anywhere, I always make an effort. Aside from the fact that I enjoy wearing nice clothes, I don't want people to see my wife and think 'Why is she with that loser? There must be something wrong with her'. In fact, I'd prefer it if I looked great, and people looked at her and thought 'She's with a really nice guy, she must be a great woman'. I don't know.

 

[Edward]

Incidently... the Chap demo against A&F is still on! Monday- PM for details if desired. We won't win, but to paraphrase a wise man, just because uou've already lost some battles, that doesn't mean you shouldn't fight them.

 

[Justhandguns]

Incidently... the Chap demo against A&F is still on! Monday- PM for details if desired. We won't win, but to paraphrase a wise man, just because uou've already lost some battles, that doesn't mean you shouldn't fight them.

Who is the wise man?

 

[Edward]

Who is the wise man?

Atticus Finch. The original, specifically, as distinct from our own. ;-)

 

[Justhandguns]

Atticus Finch. The original, specifically, as distinct from our own. ;-)

Of course!

 

[Edward]

Here's another one that looks like a crazy price to me: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lewis-Lea...pt=UK_Motorcycle_Clothing&hash=item2a44ee9b46

Seriously, for a seventies Lewis/AviaKit....

Mind you, I did recently see a Lewis Lightening, early 60s, on eBay with a seller looking GBP2,000. Supposedly as new and never worn, but still - sheesh.

 

[mihai]

Much of it has already been pointed out by you. Very interesting opinions.
Speaking strictly about leather jackets, from what I had the best quality for $$ spent with the X-Element jackets. These were my first non-mall leather jackets. Heavy leather, good construction, stitching, YKK heavy duty hardware and this in the 100-200 usd range. Of course given that they are mass produced and material is thick the finishing is not that refined as for a 1000 usd jacket.

I think that getting educated proves invaluable regardless of the field of interest / followed trend. It simply allows to get a better understanding and make a good choice.
When it comes to outwear I prefer things that make me feel good. Thanks to FL community I've been able to improve my knowledge and find practical clothing that really fits me (better than anything before). It is funny how sometimes I get questions or looks at work / on the street/ while hiking. People get a feeling that there is something special about that garment even if there is no brand association.

 

[bn1966]

Will check out the Sainsbury's basic clothes range, thanks Edward.

 

[Edward]

Will check out the Sainsbury's basic clothes range, thanks Edward.

If you're into mid-Twentieth century workwear, it's also worth a look through Debenhams current collection - I recently picked up a stunning FairIsleish sleeveless v-neck in there for £40...

 

[Dr H]

This one Edward? http://www.debenhams.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prod_10701_10001_055010360387_-1

Also available as a waistcoat:

http://www.debenhams.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prod_10701_10001_055010360487+BT_-1

 

[bn1966]

Great, I like a nice Tank Top Thanks Guys.

 

[Big J]

Tank Top Gun.

 

[Edward]

That's the one. The buttoned one is about four inches longer. Bunch of nice collarless shirts too.