Some Basic Questions about Watches.

[Worf]

Great Posts everyone... Thanks. Eric, I will take you up on your suggestion and look for a watch dealer round here. Makes the most sense I suppose.

Worf

 

[handymike]

Worf,
If you're down in the City, check out the big Torneau "Time Machine" on 57th....They have a huge used watch dept. and a good certified pre-owned program.

 

[HorseHide]

There are a few statements contained in this thread with which I strongly disagree (for instance, I don't think you could go wrong buying a used Rolex sports watch assuming you like the way it looks and feels on your wrist) but those statements wouldn't otherwise prompt me to offer a contrary opinion. But I have to refute the suggestion that Tourneau is a good place to buy any watch (new or used). My experience (based on instore visits in NYC, Chicago and SF) is that the salespeople's lack of knowledge is more than offset by their offensive attitudes. Oh yeah, and on "standard" used watches like a Omega Speedmaster (3750.50) , my experience is that Tourneau pricing is usually about 10-20% over "market" - so they have that going for them as well...

 

[handymike]

Sorry to hear that HH. I haven't bought a watch from them in 14 years, but their service on my Tag has always been great- and free. As far as the NY flagship store goes, I've seen some beauties there, and had good luck with the help. Maybe I went on a good day. It's a bit like going into the Jaguar dealer for a drive, but then you have a better idea of what you want to look for.

 

[Foxer55]

Worf,

Great Posts everyone... Thanks. Eric, I will take you up on your suggestion and look for a watch dealer round here. Makes the most sense I suppose.

Look for a Torneau store near you.

 

[Foxer55]

HH,

There are a few statements contained in this thread with which I strongly disagree (for instance, I don't think you could go wrong buying a used Rolex sports watch assuming you like the way it looks and feels on your wrist) but those statements wouldn't otherwise prompt me to offer a contrary opinion. But I have to refute the suggestion that Tourneau is a good place to buy any watch (new or used). My experience (based on instore visits in NYC, Chicago and SF) is that the salespeople's lack of knowledge is more than offset by their offensive attitudes. Oh yeah, and on "standard" used watches like a Omega Speedmaster (3750.50) , my experience is that Tourneau pricing is usually about 10-20% over "market" - so they have that going for them as well...

I'm not disagreeing with you but I've heard good and bad about them so I think its hit and miss. So far I've bought 3 watches from their store here in DC and I would call it a 6 or 7 out of ten. And I grade hard.

 

[Graemsay]

Careful Worf, watches are a whole lot more expensive than leather jackets.

If you're looking at new watches then be aware that some brands buy in movements, whereas others have created theirs in-house. The latter are known as a manufacture. There's a bit of snobbishness towards the former, but I think there's some justification, especially when some ask a premium price for a product built around a bought-in ETA calibre.

That's not to say there's anything wrong with an ETA movement. There was a chronometer competition in Switzerland a year or two back. The top two places were occupied by Jaeger LeCoultre tourbillions, which cost about the same as a Porsche. Close behind them was a Tissot Le Locle Chronometer, which is a bargain watch from a low ranking brand. For obvious reasons, I'd suggest that's something worth looking at.

If you're wanting to spend a bit more, then Omega strike me as being a practical option. Mechanical watches need servicing every five years or so, but the latest Omega movements stretch this out to eight years. Given a service costs several hundred dollars, that's a saving.

But I'd be tempted by a Jaeger LeCoultre over an Omega. The company is renowned for its movements, and builds everything in house.

Nomos are another interesting option. They are reasonably priced, have a distinctive Bauhaus aesthetic, and use in-house movements. I'd also look into Habring2, they're a small company based in Austria who build watches out of heavily customised versions of ETA and Valjoux calibres, and have won some serious horological prizes.

Lastly, I've heard that you should be able to secure a discount of 20% to 30% off retail for a new watch. Buying just after Christmas would probably be a good time too.

Vintage watches are something that really appeals to me right now. In part this is down to their prices, which can often be lower than a modern equivalent. For example, Watches of Switzerland on Bond Street has a 1951 IWC Mark XI watch in stock for £3200. The modern equivalent, the Mark XVII, retails for around £3700, has an ETA movement rather than an in-house one, and is trading on the Mark XI's name.

IWC has a massive spares department, and can carry out a full restoration of an old watch at the factory to bring it up to an as-new standard. Omega also have a similar service. I'm not sure about other brands, though.

The downside of vintage pieces is that they're tiny. The Mark XI has a 35mm case, and tends to look lost on my wrist. Knowing that Worf is heroically built, he might find modern watches to sit better.

 

[handymike]

Size of the watch is definitely something to consider. My vintage Omega Ranchero is 36mm in diameter, but the modern equivalent/ style - the Railmaster was made in 39mm, 42mm, and XXL 49mm.

 

[mikespens]

I have bought new and used Swiss watches from dealers and the interweb since the 90's. There is a huge discrepancy in the pricing of new Swiss watches that suggest huge markups on retail pricing. A fine Swiss watch properly cared for will last a lifetime and the established brands are all built to a high level. You can find the equivalent level of craftsmanship from a lesser known brand for less money. The previously mentioned Rolex/Omega comparison a prime example. Branding has become more important to self image and thus more valuable/important over product in our current show-off society. Everybody knows a Rolex is expensive because of it's extensive marketing but they build millions of watches a year compared to some lesser known and less expensive brands that are more handmade/finished and exclusive. I'm not knocking Rolex, just using a well known name as an example, they are a fine watch but personally I prefer something more exclusive and less mass produced and could care less about brand recognition. On the other hand the resale of Rolex is higher because of it's successful brand recognition. A friend of mine makes a very comfortable living reselling used Rolex. Just my 2 cents, get to know your Swiss watch brands, there are hundreds.

Here's an alternative online market place that I haven't seen mentioned: http://www.watchrecon.com/?adv_form=1

As always, the same cautions apply when dealing on the web. Personally, I purchased my last new Swiss watch from an internet dealer for $2200 with warranty that a local dealer offered for $6400. I can't afford to support my local dealer, who seems to be doing fine, that much. Good luck Worf.

 

[Foxer55]

mikespens,

Rolex is expensive because of it's extensive marketing but they build millions of watches a year compared to some lesser known and less expensive brands that are more handmade and exclusive.

Actually Rolex sells about 800,000 watches a year and severly limits production of certain watches to intentionally keep the demand and price up, the Daytona and GMT Master are examples. Very astute business practice in my opinion. Their reputation for almost bullet proof products is also one of the things I admire. My primary watch is just a year or two short of 50 years old and it has been somewhat costly to service on irregular intervals but I could still sell it right now, today, for thousands more than I paid for it including service costs. I have all the paperwork that went with the original sale, the calibration papers, repair records, everything, and that provenance contributes to its value. I get comments all the time about it from people and when I tell them its history they're speechless. As you can guess, I just cannot imagine my not wanting a Rolex, especially my prized 'Pepsi' GMT Master.

 

[tropicalbob]

You might take a look at the Hamilton Khaki series. Beautiful, classic military styles for around $600-700. Sturdy and super-reliable.

Beware, though, the watch addiction makes leather jackets look like child's play. If you want to read a great and really funny article on ebay watch-trading, plck up William Gibson's (known around here for his Buzz Rickson association) piece called "My Obsession" in the collection called "Distrust that Particular Flavor."

 

[DesertDan]

Just came to the realization that the watch I inherited from my father is rather valuable. It is a 1960's model Omega Seamaster 300. I need to do a bit of research to nail down the exact year.

 

[Don Tomaso]

There's a lot more to watches than only Rolex, Seiko, and Timex. First of all, from the visible span of your knowledge about the issue - no insult intended -, avoid the bay and avoid used watches. The market is literally full of more or less tasteful made fakes, way overpriced ultracheap show-off-pieces with useless holes in the dial and Ingersoll-type brands - Ingersoll itself for example is for years now a 100% Chinese brand and has not a hair in common with the former maker of the "Dollar-Watch". Ads have it different, at least here in Germany, but I prefer facts over fiction when it comes to spending my money.
Some brands have been named already, Omega and Hamilton, for example. We could add Oris, Tissot, Ball, Breguet, or Blancpain, only to stay within the Swatch-Group. This conglomerate also owns the ETA, the largest Swiss watch-movement-maker, so all their brands could be considered "manufacture", which in itself is pretty stupid marketing-speech for "a brand that even builds the own (exclusive) movements". That of course is completely ahistoric, in the past only a few companies like Landeron or A. Schild (now part of ETA) built movements, most companies, even Omega bought them then. Omega for example movements from Landeron for the "Speedmaster". Even the "Big 3" - Patek Philippe, Vacheron Constantin, and Jaeger LeCoultre did this. On the other hand did J-LC supply nearly everybody with their movements, in their history they designed more than a thousand different ones.
But let's not dwell on this.
Rolex has been named, and I would say, a Sporty like the older model Submariner NoDate (don't care for the newer stuff, ugly imho) would fit the bill for you. Only that a well-preserved one would set you back at least 5 grand and Rolex is the most counterfeit brand in the world, or on par with Louis Vuitton , so chances are you'll buy a fake. If you find a trustworthy seller of used watches it might be worth a try though, but insist on a visit to a concesssionaire for an evaluation. Same goes for Tudor, which is a branch of Rolex, mostly with ETA-movements (Rolex makes their own movements. Not in the past, but now).
J-LC has nice offers, it might even be possible to get used watches over the net, but they are expensive. New from 5 - 7 grand up. No limit, though .
Omega is always a good idea, own two myself, but recently they went up the food-chain a bit. Some with IWC, and, hwwwm, 95% of the Swiss watch industry . If used, check out the various "Speedmasters" - handwound or automatic - and the "Seamasters". Nice and robust, in particular with a bracelet.
IWC has some nice offers, in particular the "Ingenieur" (Engineer) line. Around 5.000 $ for starters.
Some German brands have been named already, I would add Fortis to the stew, as well as Stowa and Achimede. Stowa has some real nice things, like the "Seatime" and the "Marine". Fortis and Archimede are more into "Flieger"-style watches. Same as Sinn, from Frankfurt. They all use (mostly) ETA-movements, which are relieable, precise, and not overly expensive. They all start around 1.000 bucks.
From Germany we also have Glashütte Original and A. Lange & Söhne, both from Glashütte in Saxonia, as well as Nomos, Union, and Mühle. While GO and ALS are more high-end and noble metals and manufacture, Nomos and Mühle cater more for the normal people. Nomos makes their own movenents, basically a "re-invention" of the Peseux 7001, Mühle uses ETA. Owned a Mühle once, still have a Nomos (Club), nothing bad to be said about these. Union is a Swatch-Group-company now, they lost it a bit, imho.
Seiko, Orient, and Citizen. Orient is a branch of Seiko, btw. Relieable and well-made watches from the real big fish in the pond. Starting from around 100 $, also these companies have high-end offers. Seiko has the "Grand-Seiko"-line starting at around 2.000 and then the "Credor", which can get as high as 100.000 $. Citizen offers a spactacular precise quartz-watch, "The Citizen" for around 2.500 $. But the normal, quite mundane, "Seiko 5" are relieable and good watches and a clear recommendation. No prestige, though.
I could go on and on, but that wouldn't help you. First, what kind of watch do you like? Big or small? Clear or cluttered? Simple or complicated? Gold or steel? Bracelet or leather-band? Diver, Dresser, or Aviator? Or Terminator ? Best is, go window-shopping. There you see them, well, not all, but the most common brands and models. Unfortunately most jewellers have all the same collection, Rolex, Omega, Breitling, J-CL (mostly for the ladies) and that's it. Next step, the net. Try Time Zone, very competent but huge. Find your style and what you like, then see the bank, get a loan, and get the watch . Just kidding, simply sell all leather-jackets...
One last thing about wearing a watch to work when you get your hands dirty. I always wear one, and I get them hands dirty. The last weeks it was this:

This is by no means a cheap watch, I bought it in 2008 for a good rate and it is still the equivalent of 10-12 Aeros, but this thing has been made to get wet and bumped and so. Built to be worn. Bulletproof. I would not wear a precious vintage Rolex (could I afford one, that is ) to work or a Grande Complication from PP or another delicate piece, as well as I don't put on my finest shoes. But I do object the move that a mechanical watch is too delicate for anything rough per se.
And now: Happy hunting!

 

[Don Tomaso]

One thing I forgot: It is very important to try the watch on your wrist!

 

[Tomasso]

Worf, if you'd like more specific recs you might state your max price point. Mind you, the buying power of that sum will vary depending on what market you deal in; New from an authorized dealer, grey market, pre-owned from AD, pre-owned from private seller, etc....But it's a starting point.

 

[countryclubjoe]

Gruen watches circa 1930/1940/50 in 14k gold filled are plentiful on ebay at a reasonable price.

Made in the USA and some of there cases are rather interesting looking.

My .02

Regards

CCJ

 

[Tomasso]

Ha, when I click on that link using my iphone this darn contraption wants to make a phone call. Some smart phone......

 

[Foxer55]

Don Tomaso,

But the normal, quite mundane, "Seiko 5" are relieable and good watches and a clear recommendation.

Seiko 5 is an excellent recommendation to Worf. A good one can be had for around $100 USD. They are the most reliable value for the dollar and are known to have an excellent reputation as an inexpensive watch with a real movement. I recall reading one or two articles where they are recommended as the best watch for the dollar. And they even look outstanding.

 

[handymike]

I got 2 of those off eBay for $30 each!
They are great and come in some interesting shapes...at least the 70s ones.

 

[Tomasso]

I bought a Seiko 5 with blue face/strap for under $100 a few months back. Lotta bang for the buck there.

Here are two of my favorites which get a lot of wrist time.

The iconic Omega Speedmaster:

Jaeger-LeCoultre Reverso: