Smoke-free Hawaii

[moustache]

Here we go??

Her we go. Let's ban it all so that the farmers out in North Carolina go broke, the government receives no tax money from it and everyone will be happy.
Then we can ban cars so that no one can drive drunk or hurt themselves in accidents. Ban hands and feet so thousands or people(more than the number of people killed by guns each year) will still be alive. Then we can ban big business so it reduces polution and we can all live in caves poluting the environment anyway with wood smoke from our fires. Hey, we'll be unemployed and broke but we sure feeeeellll goooodddd about ourselves and our do goodism---that's all that counts.
Yep, that prohibition thing worked really good when the nannies tried it.
How about we let people decide where they want to go. If the non smokers are so prevalent then wouldn't the marketplace simply decide rather than nanny government?

Regards,

J

Ok,there is also the opposite.Lets open up everything from legalizing ALL drugs to child abuse to "do anything you want to".Funny how those who hate the government are so dependant on that said organism when in trouble or need money and "rescue" natural disaster.

But i won't digress into political banter.Thats not why we are here.

I just wanted to include my kudos to Hawaii.And if it means making a few upset they cannot smoke so that the other 81% can be healthy,then fine.
All must make sacrifices sometimes.
As for responsibility:Millions of people are just not responsible.What then?We cannot lock them up.We cannot fine them.Take their kids away.So people must do the best they can for the GREATER GOOD of humankind.

Any other states considering the ban???I hear Oregon will be next.

JD

 

[carebear]

In case of a natural disaster, the .gov is just gonna be in my way, like in daily life.

Handle the mail, secure the borders, maintain the interstates and leave me alone.

...and I cannot applaud a blatant trampling on the rights of business owners (homeowners are next) because some folks choose to enter the premises knowing they won't like it.

That's all I'll post on this 'un.

 

[jamespowers]

Ok,there is also the opposite.Lets open up everything from legalizing ALL drugs to child abuse to "do anything you want to".Funny how those who hate the government are so dependant on that said organism when in trouble or need money and "rescue" natural disaster.

But i won't digress into political banter.Thats not why we are here.

I just wanted to include my kudos to Hawaii.And if it means making a few upset they cannot smoke so that the other 81% can be healthy,then fine.
All must make sacrifices sometimes.
As for responsibility:Millions of people are just not responsible.What then?We cannot lock them up.We cannot fine them.Take their kids away.So people must do the best they can for the GREATER GOOD of humankind.

Any other states considering the ban???I hear Oregon will be next.

JD

I don't want to legalize anything that isn't legal now. Cigarettes are a perfectly legal product that has commercials on TV showing they will kill you if you smoke them. What else are you going to do? Strap them in a chair and make them stop?! I thinkt hey have a right to smoke and you have the right to avoid them as Cbear says.
I don't want anything fromt he governmen. They want things from me--my liberties for a semblance of security---no thanks.
The irresponsible people will just have to live witht he consequences of their actions. Just like everyone else. You cannot protect them from themselves.
Government makes a poor excuse for a parent but they sure make a great tyranny when allowed to run amok.
That's it for me.

Regards,

J

 

[moustache]

Same here.I'm done as well.

JD

 

[GOK]

I would just like to point out that I do try to avoid going to places where people smoke but sometimes, y'know, I want a social life or need to go into town.

Is it so unreasonable for me to want to see show without my health being put at risk by those that don't have the common decency to either go outside or wait a couple of hours until they are home? Is it unreasonable to want to walk along the street or in a shopping mall without having to inhale second hand smoke from the people smoking around me? Is it unreasonable to not want to see children burned by careless smokers (this happened to my son when he was small when we were out shopping)?

You speak of rights - what about the rights of those that don't smoke? We have every right not to breathe in your smoke. We have every right not to smell like old ashtrays because smokers have polluted our space.

I'm not having a moan at anyone in particular but I get so f***ing fed up with people going on about rights for this, rights for that. Sure we all have them, so how about understanding that the minority are not the only ones that count or are having their rights trampled on? :rage:

I don't want anything fromt he governmen.

Not even a police force, fire service, education for your children? Could you afford or be willing to pay for all these things privately? Your own personal guards to ensure you and your family can live safely and securely? Some firemen on hand just in case your house catches alight? A governess for your children? With all due respect, sir, I think there are a few things you want from your government - as do we all. Life is about give, take and compromise. We are not children that can expect to have it all our own way.

 

[moustache]

Ok,i will say one last thing.

EVERYONE of the people i have spoken with,friends and relatives,aquaintances and pals,with cancer from smoking or second hand smoke,have ALWAYS regretted taking up the habit.
NOT ONE has delighted that he or she contracted cancer.Not one.

We keep finding new ways to kill ourselves.But not just ourselves.All of those around us as well.

Keep your smoking at home please.At least out of gentlemanlike manners and consideration for others.

Ok.Now i'm done.

JD

 

[GOK]

Ok,i will say one last thing.

EVERYONE of the people i have spoken with,friends and relatives,aquaintances and pals,with cancer from smoking or second hand smoke,have ALWAYS regretted taking up the habit.
NOT ONE has delighted that he or she contracted cancer.Not one.

We keep finding new ways to kill ourselves.But not just ourselves.All of those around us as well.

Keep your smoking at home please.At least out of gentlemanlike manners and consideration for others.

Ok.Now i'm done.

JD

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[jamespowers]

I would just like to point out that I do try to avoid going to places where people smoke but sometimes, y'know, I want a social life or need to go into town.

Is it so unreasonable for me to want to see show without my health being put at risk by those that don't have the common decency to either go outside or wait a couple of hours until they are home? Is it unreasonable to want to walk along the street or in a shopping mall without having to inhale second hand smoke from the people smoking around me? Is it unreasonable to not want to see children burned by careless smokers (this happened to my son when he was small when we were out shopping)?

You speak of rights - what about the rights of those that don't smoke? We have every right not to breathe in your smoke. We have every right not to smell like old ashtrays because smokers have polluted our space.

I'm not having a moan at anyone in particular but I get so f***ing fed up with people going on about rights for this, rights for that. Sure we all have them, so how about understanding that the minority are not the only ones that count or are having their rights trampled on? :rage:



Not even a police force, fire service, education for your children? Could you afford or be willing to pay for all these things privately? Your own personal guards to ensure you and your family can live safely and securely? Some firemen on hand just in case your house catches alight? A governess for your children? With all due respect, sir, I think there are a few things you want from your government - as do we all. Life is about give, take and compromise. We are not children that can expect to have it all our own way.

Ok, I was done until I got dragged back in so fair warning.
You are in a different country so I really cannot speak to what rights you have there. I can only speak as to what we have here.
In living in a civilized society there are certain things that you have to cope with. Here, you don't have the right to impose your way of living on another individual. They can smoke their brains out as far as I am concerned.
My grandfather died of emphesema. It was his fault. He smoked for forty years. There was no idea that it was good for you even then. Even during Sir Walter Reighleigh's time, they already knew it was bad for your lungs---in the 1600s!
I don't quite understand how you meet up with so many smokers there if they have laws against it. I can go to the mall and no one smokes there. If I walk down the street, I can cross if I see a smoker if it bothers me. Every bar and restaurant here is non smoking as well. I really have to work hard to encounter a smoker as they have just about been banished as it is. What more can you do?
In the context of the previous argument, I meant I do not need money from government or disaster aid. That's what insurance and retirement planning are for. I can say that the police and firemen here are more than adequately compensated though and yes if I had to I could hire all those people you mentioned myself if government didn't provide them or if they allowed me to protect myself.
The last part is the most hilarious in context of the argument.
"Life is about give, take and compromise. We are not children that can expect to have it all our own way."
Yep, you made my point for me. You can't take smoker's rights away and have it all your way.
Ok, now I am done.

Regards to all,

J

 

[moustache]

Thanks for your thoughts Mr Powers.
It is nice to be able to agree to disagree without an argument.
There are valid points on both sides and i like to hear and understand them.

JD

 

[Harp]

When I was in Hawaii tobacco wasn't the weed of choice....lol
Never smoked either, but, ensconced in middle age I am tempted
to try a pipe.

 

[GOK]

Ok, I was done until I got dragged back in so fair warning.

Ha! I knew you couldn't keep away!

<snip>Here, you don't have the right to impose your way of living on another individual.

But you see, I can say that too; smokers do not have a right to impose their habit on me...or at least the fumes from it.

They can smoke their brains out as far as I am concerned.

I agree - but I don't see why I should be subjected to it. [huh]

My grandfather died of emphesema. It was his fault. He smoked for forty years. There was no idea that it was good for you even then.

Mine died from heart disease; he smoked all his adult life. I don't think the two were unconnected. He was told to quit but never listened. I wish he had because my Grandmother's heart broke the day he died. She lived for almost another 20 years without him. I find that incredibly sad.

Even during Sir Walter Reighleigh's time, they already knew it was bad for your lungs---in the 1600s!

Be that as it may, during the first half of the 20th century, there was a school of thought that declared smoking to be purifying for the lungs. People believed that because it justified their habit.

I don't quite understand how you meet up with so many smokers there if they have laws against it.

Quite simply, we don't. Some venues are no smoking zones but this is not law. There is no law that stops people smoking in the street and in malls. There are far more smoking bars than non. I don't go to bars but I do go to a jazz/comedy club and there are a lot of smokers there. I'm not trying to deprive people of the right to smoke but a separate area (perhaps downstairs in the bar) would be better. That way, the non smokers amongst us could enjoy the shows more.

At restaurants, mostly the ones we go to, have no smoking policies but some have a separate smoking area. In theory this should work but in practice it doesn't because the area is close to the non smoking section.

Worst of all is the cinema. They are all non-smoking, yet some people still choose to disregard the rules and light up. Even reporting it to the staff does no good and asking the culprits to desist usually meets with a threat and frankly, abusive behaviour. I could leave, and indeed I have done but the point is that I have deliberately chosen to go to a non-smoking environment. I have the RIGHT to enjoy a film without being smoked out. But suddenly my rights are being trampled on. I'm sure you'd be the first to agree that this is not on...wouldn't you?

In the context of the previous argument, I meant I do not need money from government or disaster aid.

That wasn't clear from your post and I am glad you have elucidated on that. Thank you.

The last part is the most hilarious in context of the argument.
"Life is about give, take and compromise. We are not children that can expect to have it all our own way."
Yep, you made my point for me. You can't take smoker's rights away and have it all your way.

I don't think I did actually. I'm not saying I want to take away the smokers' right to smoke, I'm saying they seem to want it all their own way, which is selfish. If a person chooses to endanger their own health, fine but when they are too arrogant to accept that other people have a right not to have theirs threatened, that's when I have a problem with it. If you want to smoke, fine but accept that others don't and take that into consideration.

 

[RedPop4]

I don't think I did actually. I'm not saying I want to take away the smokers' right to smoke, I'm saying they seem to want it all their own way, which is selfish. If a person chooses to endanger their own health, fine but when they are too arrogant to accept that other people have a right not to have theirs threatened, that's when I have a problem with it. If you want to smoke, fine but accept that others don't and take that into consideration.

They do?

There's a fast-food place in Tallahassee Florida that is already advertising that they don't use transfats. How about that? I think it's great. They have decided, all on their own, that this may be good for their business and will let their patrons decide for themselves if this is what they want. Isn't that great? A business, a private entity having the right to decide for themselves how they wish to serve their patrons, and to let them vote with their dollars. No government necessary.

Last time I checked, most Americans still buy into the idea that this is a "free" country. Oh, wait, PUT THAT STINKY THING OUT, you're not allowed to do that in there, go outside, damn you filthy smoker.
HEY, YOU'RE TOO CLOSE TO THE DOOR, go down the street. Stand outside in the rain and cold, you addicted wretch, how dare you foist your dirty nasty habit on ME. How ridiculous will this get? What's a business to do when the requisite distance is in front of someone ELSE'S property?

Of course, it won't ever be illegal, oh no sir, that would take courage. City councils, county councils, state legislatures, and even Congress would have to drastically increase taxes to make up the shortfall from "sin taxes." Talk about discrimination, many cigarette smokers, though certainly not all, bear an unfair tax burden because of "sin taxes." "We'll show those smokers, we'll tax the hell out of them, that'll make them quit." But then where do those revenues come from once we outlaw smoking? Lots of lawmakers will lose their jobs once that happens.

Yeah, we want smokers' money, but quit smoking around ME.
:rage: :rage: :rage: :rage:

 

[Grace]

Her we go. Let's ban it all so that the farmers out in North Carolina go broke, the government receives no tax money from it and everyone will be happy.
Then we can ban cars so that no one can drive drunk or hurt themselves in accidents. Ban hands and feet so thousands or people(more than the number of people killed by guns each year) will still be alive. Then we can ban big business so it reduces polution and we can all live in caves poluting the environment anyway with wood smoke from our fires. Hey, we'll be unemployed and broke but we sure feeeeellll goooodddd about ourselves and our do goodism---that's all that counts.
Yep, that prohibition thing worked really good when the nannies tried it.
How about we let people decide where they want to go. If the non smokers are so prevalent then wouldn't the marketplace simply decide rather than nanny government?

Regards,

J

Exactly!! :eusa_clap

 

[Elaina]

I'm a smoker, and I don't exactly hide it. I WAS taught (by both of my smoker parents) to at least be polite about it. I've lived in Washington and I've lived in Texas where the lawa are different.

Really, I don't go to restaurants where I can't smoke then try to smoke. I'm not as rabid as my husband on it, but generally we go to places with a smoking section. If we don't, we deal. Period. On the same token, if we go to a bar, we smoke. You open the door, you can tell if there's smokers. As a non-smoker, hey you get to deal. I smoke in my house. If you come over, guess what? (Okay, I'm nicer about it then my husband. If you come over and don't smoke, I'll smoke near an open door/window or not at all.)

I lived in Vancouver. There were places we could smoke, places we couldn't. In Texas there are more places to smoke, but alot of places we can't. Frankly, I'm more pissed off the town I live in won't let me eat my bloody steak (mean this literally) seared because the health department is telling me I have to have it medium or better.

You tax cigarettes until everyone stops, ok cool. Then it's going to be beer, then when we quit that it'll be fast food...and it'll keep going (joke's on you tho, I smoke. I drink maybe once a year, and fast food is something I eat maybe once every couple years. I don't have much vices otherwise.) But as a smoker I will say this: we're paying higher taxes on an item we choose to use. Eventually when we aren't paying for your portion throuh our vices, you'll have to pick up the slack. When we all quit an we quit paying $10 a week on our insurance, where do you think the money's going to come from?

Now, also as a smoker, I don't sit right up on top of anyone and blow. I just wish non-smokers would try to be as polite to me as I am to them. If I am somewhere and I can tell smoking is bothering them, I will usually put it out. But I wish non-smokers would quit trying to take over our bit of Siberia and hack and scream about it.

 

[jamespowers]

I'm a smoker, and I don't exactly hide it. I WAS taught (by both of my smoker parents) to at least be polite about it. I've lived in Washington and I've lived in Texas where the lawa are different.

Really, I don't go to restaurants where I can't smoke then try to smoke. I'm not as rabid as my husband on it, but generally we go to places with a smoking section. If we don't, we deal. Period. On the same token, if we go to a bar, we smoke. You open the door, you can tell if there's smokers. As a non-smoker, hey you get to deal. I smoke in my house. If you come over, guess what? (Okay, I'm nicer about it then my husband. If you come over and don't smoke, I'll smoke near an open door/window or not at all.)

I lived in Vancouver. There were places we could smoke, places we couldn't. In Texas there are more places to smoke, but alot of places we can't. Frankly, I'm more pissed off the town I live in won't let me eat my bloody steak (mean this literally) seared because the health department is telling me I have to have it medium or better.

You tax cigarettes until everyone stops, ok cool. Then it's going to be beer, then when we quit that it'll be fast food...and it'll keep going (joke's on you tho, I smoke. I drink maybe once a year, and fast food is something I eat maybe once every couple years. I don't have much vices otherwise.) But as a smoker I will say this: we're paying higher taxes on an item we choose to use. Eventually when we aren't paying for your portion throuh our vices, you'll have to pick up the slack. When we all quit an we quit paying $10 a week on our insurance, where do you think the money's going to come from?

Now, also as a smoker, I don't sit right up on top of anyone and blow. I just wish non-smokers would try to be as polite to me as I am to them. If I am somewhere and I can tell smoking is bothering them, I will usually put it out. But I wish non-smokers would quit trying to take over our bit of Siberia and hack and scream about it.

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[Paisley]

Long ago, a gentleman asked a lady's permission to smoke if they were in the same room. (Ladies didn't smoke.) Now that would be nice.

 

[GOK]

Long ago, a gentleman asked a lady's permission to smoke if they were in the same room. (Ladies didn't smoke.) Now that would be nice.

Not so long ago, most people I knew who smoked would always ask if anyone minded them lighting up. If anyone objected, they would move away. These days it seems that most people don't actually care how others feel about it, let alone enquire.

Elaina, I rather think you may be in a minority nowadays. Still, good for you.

 

[Feraud]

Not so long ago, most people I knew who smoked would always ask if anyone minded them lighting up. If anyone objected, they would move away. These days it seems that most people don't actually care how others feel about it, let alone enquire.

Elaina, I rather think you may be in a minority nowadays. Still, good for you.

An insightful observation. These smoking bans remind me of the Lounge ban on politics. If you cannot do it politely then you cannot do it at all.

 

[carebear]

Not so long ago, most people I knew who smoked would always ask if anyone minded them lighting up. If anyone objected, they would move away. These days it seems that most people don't actually care how others feel about it, let alone enquire.

Elaina, I rather think you may be in a minority nowadays. Still, good for you.

OK, I'll keep this to the topic, not general libertarian theory.

Context is the key here. In a public setting, as opposed to in a private room or home, it is polite to ask your companions if they mind if you smoke. That would be your party, at your table, in a smoking establishment.

If you choose, knowing that you dislike other people's smoke, to enter an establishment that allows smoking, you have to accept that some folks will smoke. All you can ask is courtesy from the smokers you are with.

As for the other smokers? They aren't "forcing" it on you, you freely chose to enter that location, knowing full well smoking was allowed.

If you want to mention to the owner that you would prefer he not allow smoking, go ahead, if enough people tell him that, he might change.

If you want to go to another place that doesn't allow smoking, great. if it becomes a success then other owners will take note and join the trend.

If there aren't any privately owned (remember, bars are private property) places that are "smoke free" and you think one would succeed... open it. Don't demand other people change their business because you, in the end, lack the gumption to do what they did and assume the risk of opening your own nightspot (for example).

I have no problem with private businesses voluntarily banning smoking (like airlines or hospitals, that made perfect sense for their business model and situation). I have no real problem with our elected representatives deciding to make the public buildings under their control smoke-free, if enough people don't like it they can vote the buggers out.

I do have a problem with people wanting laws telling business owners that they can't allow a legal activity on their property when those same people can avoid the smoke by simply not going through the doors.

If you feel deprived of a smoke-free nightlife, be a grownup and open your own dang bar.

 

[MrBern]

I'd like to point out that this law also protects the WORKERS. Not everyone is in a bar or restaurant to enjoy their evening. The smoke free laws provide the staff w/ safer work conditions.

I have not read about any establishments closing down due to any impact of smoking restrictions....