Slim fitting flight jackets (A-2, M422)

[indigoeagle]

Hi,

I'm very interested in finally getting a A-2 jacket.
I've tried on the slender A-2 from ELC. I liked it a lot but it was too small for me, even though I'm normally a 42. The sleeves were too tight and short, also the shoulders were too narrow. 44 might work.

From perusing the forum I learned that Aero's Bronco might fit.

What's the cut of Buzz Rickson's or the other Japanese makers like Rainbow Country like? Often in Japan vintage details are combined with more modern (meaning trimmer) fits.

I'd also be interested to hear about similarly cut M422s.
What are the experiences of people 185cms or taller wearing A-2s with the length of the jacket? Is it long enough? Or doesn't it really matter because as a lighter jacket it's more like a summer jacket anyway?
I've tried a number of B-10s and love them but they're too short for me (even with period adequate higher waist pants).
tia

 

[Foster]

I am about 191cm tall and I had some length added to my Aero Bronco, although it may not have been necessary. Much depends on if you want a WWII fit, or a modern fit.

 

[Fletch]

Often in Japan vintage details are combined with more modern (meaning trimmer) fits.

Trimmer might be more modern in Japan. In the West it's anything but. Here "modern fit" means an outerwear fit - slack thru the waist, droopy shoulders and bloopy sleeves. Something you can layer under, as opposed to the classic A-2 cut, meant to be worn over nothing more than a service shirt and possibly a cloth flightsuit.

 

[Plumbline]

Trimmer might be more modern in Japan. In the West it's anything but. Here "modern fit" means an outerwear fit - slack thru the waist, droopy shoulders and bloopy sleeves. Something you can layer under, as opposed to the classic A-2 cut, meant to be worn over nothing more than a service shirt and possibly a cloth flightsuit.

or it fits rather than being too small

 

[indigoeagle]

Trimmer might be more modern in Japan. In the West it's anything but. Here "modern fit" means an outerwear fit - slack thru the waist, droopy shoulders and bloopy sleeves. Something you can layer under, as opposed to the classic A-2 cut, meant to be worn over nothing more than a service shirt and possibly a cloth flightsuit.

I thought the classical, periodically correct fit was a boxy one. And thus opposed to that modern meaning fitted.

 

[indigoeagle]

I am about 191cm tall and I had some length added to my Aero Bronco, although it may not have been necessary. Much depends on if you want a WWII fit, or a modern fit.

I get cold on my lower back very quickly.
So, if there's some gap between the jacket hem and my trousers, it's getting cold in my kidney area and then I won't wear the jacket. Even if that is the correct fit for someone sitting in a fighter plane and being able to move freely.
So, the Aero option of adding some cms sounds good. But their 42 or 44 ones might be long enough anyways to cover my back.

 

[HighandDry]

Trimmer might be more modern in Japan. In the West it's anything but. Here "modern fit" means an outerwear fit - slack thru the waist, droopy shoulders and bloopy sleeves. Something you can layer under, as opposed to the classic A-2 cut, meant to be worn over nothing more than a service shirt and possibly a cloth flightsuit.

I disagree with that. Look at any of the fashion today and it's definitely about a trimmer cut.

However, I only wear my A2 as a spring/fall jacket with only a light shirt underneath.

 

[Jeff M]

A2's were churned out by the tens of thousands, mass by different companies with slightly different takes on the military specification. Combine that with the wide range in body types they were issued to......the "classic, periodically correct fit" ranged from a neat, close fit to baggy to short armed, to long armed to short torso to relatively long in the torso.
If you look at photos of WW2 personel wearing their A2's you will see a WIDE range of "fits".
A common refrain among military personel re; the fit of their equipment was how it DIDN'T fit.

Re; A2's vs M 422 designs...
A comfortable "trim fit" A2, especially if you are not built like a depression era raised malnourished 20 year old just finished with flight training , can be tricky to find. Many A2 contracts tend to be tight across the back and arm pits, and more restrictive when it comes to a "reaching" motion than the modern fashions we are accustomed to.
A M422/ G1 design alleviates much of that problem with the bi-swing back.

Here is a link to Good Wear Leather, one of the top A2 reproduction makers around today.

http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/index.html

If you look through the descriptions of the various A2 contracts on the left side of the home page, you will see lots of discussion about the fit of the different contracts across the shoulders/arms.

Here is a link to the Good Wear photo archive section devoted to period pictures of crews/airmen. If you look closely you will see quite a variety of "fits".

http://www.goodwearleather.com/photos/vintage_photos/

Today we have the luxury of a couple of repro A2 manufacturers who offer jackets custom made to your measurements. You can tailor one how you want to fit...within the limitations of the overall design. You aren't stuck having to take what the quartermaster throws at you when you tell him your jacket size like they were back in WW2.

 

[Foster]

The different ways of setting the sleeves in the various contracts makes a difference in comfort. The M422 has gussets under the arms so I believe that one is better suited to a range of motion than the A2, but I don't own one so others might have to elaborate on that.

 

[nick123]

The different ways of setting the sleeves in the various contracts makes a difference in comfort. The M422 has gussets under the arms so I believe that one is better suited to a range of motion than the A2, but I don't own one so others might have to elaborate on that.

To the OP, one thing to note also is that the repro jackets will have higher armholes (compared to modern jackets) which will give the jackets a trimmer appearance automatically... (I'm not 100% sure if this has anything to do with it, just my observation). Some people have different experiences/comfort levels with the armholes, but the conclusion seems to be if the jacket fits it will be comfortable.

 

[Jeff M]

.. but the conclusion seems to be if the jacket fits it will be comfortable.

This hasn't been my experience with A2's. They actually are the most persnickety of jackets.
An A2 may fit great everywhere...but be a bit tight in the armholes.
For the first 15 minutes it's not that bad. Thereafter it's all I can think about.
Or...the armholes may be good...but too tight across the back to the point where I feel like I am fighting the jacket to try to drive a car.
Or.....everything may be great...but the sleeves too long to where they tunnel to the point where they feel like the entire sleeve, rather than draping from the shoulder, is being supported from below at the wrist.

It is not uncommon for folks who like the A2 design to go through a fair number of them till they find one they are comfortable in. It may only be a 1/4" more across the back, a 1/2" less in sleeve length, a different contract with more room in the arm hole, ....but it's amazing what a difference it can make on an A2.


In my experience, the combination of the gusseted arm hole with the bi-swing back makes the M422's/G1's design a much more forgiving and overall more comfortable fit than the A2.

 

[Sloan1874]

I had that experience with Aero's QM A-2. Tried one on in the factory in my usual size 36, it was on offer at a knock-down price due to a slight glitch in it. looked great on arms, length and even the back seemed fine, but the shoulders were just a shade too tight, and while this might have stretched out after a while, it was something I couldn't in all conscience throw a couple of hundred quid at.

 

[indigoeagle]

A2's were churned out by the tens of thousands, mass by different companies with slightly different takes on the military specification. Combine that with the wide range in body types they were issued to......the "classic, periodically correct fit" ranged from a neat, close fit to baggy to short armed, to long armed to short torso to relatively long in the torso.
If you look at photos of WW2 personel wearing their A2's you will see a WIDE range of "fits".
A common refrain among military personel re; the fit of their equipment was how it DIDN'T fit.

Interesting point.
Yes, I can imagine that. Not much time to bother too much with the ultimate fit.

Re; A2's vs M 422 designs...
A comfortable "trim fit" A2, especially if you are not built like a depression era raised malnourished 20 year old just finished with flight training , can be tricky to find. Many A2 contracts tend to be tight across the back and arm pits, and more restrictive when it comes to a "reaching" motion than the modern fashions we are accustomed to.
A M422/ G1 design alleviates much of that problem with the bi-swing back.

Here is a link to Good Wear Leather, one of the top A2 reproduction makers around today.

http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/index.html

Here is a link to the Good Wear photo archive section devoted to period pictures of crews/airmen. If you look closely you will see quite a variety of "fits".

http://www.goodwearleather.com/photos/vintage_photos/

Today we have the luxury of a couple of repro A2 manufacturers who offer jackets custom made to your measurements. You can tailor one how you want to fit...within the limitations of the overall design. You aren't stuck having to take what the quartermaster throws at you when you tell him your jacket size like they were back in WW2.

Helpful info that the M422/G1 offers more room for maneuvering while still not looking like a sack. I'll look for one. But with the shearling collar it's more a autum/winter jacket, I think.

Thanks also for the Goodwear info. I was aware of John Chapman and have heard the praise he's getting for historical accuracy and highest quality. But since I'm not such an afficionado (yet) the price are too high for me and the waiting time too long (yet).

Such a jacket seems to be a bit undersupplied. I can imagine that there are many guys who like the design of an A2 but would like to have it in a fit that they prefer, i.e. trim, not boxy, but room for moving, long enough in the back and sleeves. And of good leather and without any superflouos additions like is done on so many fashion versions.
The Slender version by ELC seems to be a step in that direction.
Any experiences with the Japanese A2s?
The Japanese seem to have two approaches-
1. Make an identical copy of historic pieces.
2. Copy the gist of the original item but then adapt it to modern preferences while keeping the original 'aesthetic'.
In the recent article on The Real McCoys the second approach was described as their modus operandi.

 

[Sloan1874]

Real McCoys' pricing is just bizarre: £185 for a hoodie, I ask you!

 

[Foster]

I doubt you will find the Japanese A2 jackets to be sufficiently long enough if you are over 185cm. If you want the M422 comfort without the fur collar, then the ANJ-3 might be an idea. Here's a link to an Aero listing for one
http://www.aeroleatherclothing.com/product-detail.php?id=976

 

[majormajor]

Tight armholes are, for me, the hardest fit issue to live with.

I've sold lots of vintage and repro "vintage fit" jackets for just that reason.

I guess folks were just alot thinner round the chest back then!

Leather and Denim will stretch with time, but stitching rarely does (if anything, it will shrink!).

So a jacket with a small armhole opening (a small shoulder-to-shoulder dimension will exacerbate this) that feels tight when you put it on will probably always feel tight.

You WILL sell it on eventually

 

[Blackadder]

If you go to the Rakuten online market, you will find those Japanese repros with measurements. For example,
http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/porkys/item/10002276/

 

[Gancho]

I have both, a Bronco A2 and a m-422 made by Aero. You should know that I like my jackets trim fitting. The A2 is tight and still comfortable, the M-422 is tighter and as comfortable. In 75% or more, i wear these jacket unzipped. unzipped both are comfortable like a roomier.

The A2 posted in the link above is, for me, much to roomy.

i agree that too tight armwholes make a jacket unwearable, but for my taste all civil Aero's have too deep and too big armwholes.

Olli

 

[indigoeagle]

If you go to the Rakuten online market, you will find those Japanese repros with measurements. For example,
http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/porkys/item/10002276/

Thanks, I know rakuten.
I find it difficult to judge a fit from the measurements, so I was hoping someone who owns or owned a Japanese A2 would comment.

The Melton Wool Pea Coats come to mind. From what I've gathered the Buzz Rickson one adheres closely to the original measurements and is thus a bit boxy, while the Real McCoys version is trimmer.

 

[indigoeagle]

I have both, a Bronco A2 and a m-422 made by Aero. You should know that I like my jackets trim fitting. The A2 is tight and still comfortable, the M-422 is tighter and as comfortable. In 75% or more, i wear these jacket unzipped. unzipped both are comfortable like a roomier.

The A2 posted in the link above is, for me, much to roomy.

i agree that too tight armwholes make a jacket unwearable, but for my taste all civil Aero's have too deep and too big armwholes.

Olli

Great info.
Thanks.
May I ask which leather you chose for both? Goat for the M-422, I suppose.
And if Horse for the A-2, does Aero offer veg tan horsehide?
Do you wear both more for spring summer or also in colder temperatures?
tia