Simmons Bilt. Which leather?

[ton312]

 

[Seb Lucas]

Hello everyone ...

I will get my first "real" leather jacket. It will be a black cafe racer from simmons bilt.
However, I am not sure which leather I should pick.

1. What is our experience with the clayton black horsehide or the clayton vintage black?
2. What do you think about the modena hh or the monza hh?

Thanks for the help

The reality is if you know nothing about leather and fit it generally takes a fair bit of time and expermenting to get this right. I bought a dozen jackets before I properly understood fit and the kind of leather I actually could wear here. Unless you are lucky, you may be working on this project over some years.

As people here will tell you, the key is understanding your measurements. Once you understand these you have a good start. But even here you can run into trouble. Measurements chosen depend on what you consider to be a good fit. Some people like wide shoulders that droop on either end. Most of us on this site consider this poor fit. But taste does come into it when you are establishing key lengths that work for you.

It may help to have a photo or two of a jacket that fits the way you like it and then you need to see if you have a denim jacket or something similar that fits that way. You can measure this jacket up for your size rather than measuring yourself. Where do you want your sleeves to end? Serious leather jacket question.

I recommend you read and learn for some time, making notes and then start the process. Or, if you can afford it, buy a couple of beaters on eBay and work it out that way.

You also need to be honest about your size. A cafe racer doesn't really suit all body shapes.

On leather - you need to study this a bit too. Thick leathers are impractical if you live in a warmer region. I tend to favour nothing heavier than 2.5oz. You may also find that the really heavy stuff is annoying to wear. Some don't feel this, others do. I prefer a soft, lighter leather for this climate and as an overall comfort preference. I have never enjoyed 3oz leather no matter what it is even in colder weather. But that's just me.

 

[AeroFan_07]

This is all sound, sage advice. Hope the OP isn't overwhelmed, but I certainly didn't have a resource like FL when I started into this area of addiction in College. Keep learning, trying different jackets, and enjoy something that very few people your age even appreciate - Quality!

 

[ton312]

My advice would be to find a nice Brooks, Kehoe or Reed vintage CR. Get your numbers in order first, chest, shoulders and lengths. These jackets are all over eBay and reasonably priced. You won't lose much $ on one if you need to flip it. You will break even or make a buck or two.
Their jackets are quite beautifully tailored. Surprisingly so. The best fitting jacket I ever owned was a $100 brooks. No hide, maker, etc ever topped it. Ever. And believe me I tried again and again. Point being, if you want to go whole hog on an Aero or SB or what have you, you'll have a great baseline to work off of. Or you might find you don't need to drop a K on that thing you seek.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

The fact remains that all shinki leathers are only semi-aniline meaning they have been pigmented more than dyed. This means they're at least partially coated with paint and to me that's less desirable that full aniline dyed leather which uses transparent stains to show through to all the character of the hide. This really mostly only matters with colors that aren't black, but if it's gonna be black I much prefer it to be teacore so that I can still get some of that character that's otherwise missing in semi aniline leathers.

Don't get me wrong my favorite jacket is semi aniline, they are awesome leathers generally. But my favorite one is also a teacore, and without that quality a semi aniline leather won't show nearly as much patina as the others I've mentioned. Chromexcel in brown is a full aniline leather, which is why it gathers so much character with wear and has a depth of color that shinki just lacks. It's like staining a piece of wood as opposed to painting it.

With regard to your comment about "different levels of chromexcel", I'd have to say that's not entirely accurate as chromexcel hasn't changed much since they started producing it many years ago. As far as i'm aware there is only steer and fqhh chromexcel and which of those one prefers is subjective, as are the various thicknesses it can be skived down to. It would be more appropriate to say there are varying levels of "Horween" i.e. Dublin, Chromexcel, Shell Cordovan but within those products themselves the only variation should be from batch to batch and hide to hide as leather is of course a natural product and there will always be some variation.

Im sure you'll agree that Shinki isn't a type of leather but rather a tannery like Horween, so of course make different grades and types of leather as well. Apparently the one Simmons Bilt gets isn't really very inspired which is unfortunate as I really want to pick up a Shinki jacket but I'm not willing to pay japanese prices. I almost ordered a diamond dave in Shinki but at the last minute he informed me he was out of it, so I've had no luck with Shinki thus far.

Different strokes for different folks. I (and many others) find chromexcel to be quite dull and characterless. Shinki has more character than any leather I've experienced along with Badalassi. Of course, this is subjective. I do have a pair of Lofgren chromexcel engineers that I like, but that's because it's natural and has quite the nice patina.

There are levels of chromexcel. This has been well documented with boots that use the leather. I also personally know that there are levels of Shinki leather. The Flat Head gets the very first choice, then other Japanese makers, then Goodwear/Himel (although they specifically request different specs to what the Japanese like anyway from what I have heard). SB is the most recent to even get Shinki.

Also, to the OP: just listen to @ton312 . For a first jacket, that is a far better option. Very few people get their first jacket exactly right, so all these arguments the rest of us are having on your behalf are pretty pointless

 

[oskar]

You guys are just amazing. You are helping me a lot. Big thanks. I know for sure that this wont be my last jacket. It happend some time ago with high quality shoes as well: I got my first pair and now I have way to many. But I love it

I think it makes a lot of sense to buy a new one, because at the moment the euro is very strong compared to the pound. Therefore used jackets are sometimes even more expensive than new ones. I plan to go to a tailor to get my exact size.

 

[oskar]

I totally understand your point, that it will take time to find your "true" size. In the past i have been wearing cafe racer jackets in cheap leather and i am confident that this style suits me.

The thing is that i am a guy that goes out a lot and i am looking for a jacket that is not to warm to wear inside of bars.

First of all I will ask sb to get some samples.

Crazy thing just happend to me. I showed my girlfriend pictures of horween and shinki jackets and asked what she likes better. She told me both look super cheap and boring.
Maybe i should break up with her

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I totally understand your point, that it will take time to find your "true" size. In the past i have been wearing cafe racer jackets in cheap leather and i am confident that this style suits me.

The thing is that i am a guy that goes out a lot and i am looking for a jacket that is not to warm to wear inside of bars.

You'll eventually be able to give companies that make custom jackets the size you want the jacket to be rather than giving your measurements and hoping they get it right.

 

[El Marro]

I have an SB cafe racer in black Shinki and I think that it is a pretty nice jacket. The Shinki that SB uses is quite different than my other three Shinki jackets (2 Good Wears and 1 Diamond Dave). This leather is much glossier and has an almost slick feel to it. I am not usually a fan of slick or shiny jackets but I think it suits this style just fine. I have not worn it much but it began to loosen up almost immediately and the grain is really coming through around the elbows and the shoulders. It is an easy wearing jacket that I think will age very nicely. Definitely get a sample and see what you think.
Regarding the girlfriend, if she is kind and open minded enough to tolerate your fascination with Horween vs. Shinki and leather jackets in general, then she is a keeper!

 

[Superfluous]

The fact remains that all shinki leathers are only semi-aniline meaning they have been pigmented more than dyed. This means they're at least partially coated with paint and to me that's less desirable that full aniline dyed leather which uses transparent stains to show through to all the character of the hide.

Incorrect. There is no definitive definition of "semi-aniline." Some semi-aniline leathers do in fact have a pigment added to the leather. However, some semi-aniline leathers do not have any added pigment, and only have a thin top coat for protective purposes.

For example: http://www.leathermasteruk.com/index_leather_types.htm

"SEMI-ANILINE (A)

Semi-Aniline dyed leathers have been both dyed through and have a thin finishing layer on the surface. They offer a combination of the softness and feel of full aniline leather with the protective benefits of a surface finish. By dyeing the leather through before the final thin top coating is applied, a very even colouration is achieved with only a thin layer of finish. Thus the leather remains softer because it is not necessary to apply a thick top coating.

PIGMENTED (P)

The leather may be buffed (corrected) to reduce heavy natural scarring and blemishes in the hides. It is then coloured with a coating containing opaque pigments and embossed with a grain pattern to ensure a uniformity of colour and resistance to fading."

Again, there are semi-aniline leathers that have added pigments, and semi-aniline leathers made without pigments. Many Shinki hides have protective top coats, but I no not know if they have added pigments.

 

[Woodyear]

Incorrect. There is no definitive definition of "semi-aniline." Some semi-aniline leathers do in fact have a pigment added to the leather. However, some semi-aniline leathers do not have any added pigment, and only have a thin top coat for protective purposes.

For example: http://www.leathermasteruk.com/index_leather_types.htm

"SEMI-ANILINE (A)

Semi-Aniline dyed leathers have been both dyed through and have a thin finishing layer on the surface. They offer a combination of the softness and feel of full aniline leather with the protective benefits of a surface finish. By dyeing the leather through before the final thin top coating is applied, a very even colouration is achieved with only a thin layer of finish. Thus the leather remains softer because it is not necessary to apply a thick top coating.

PIGMENTED (P)

The leather may be buffed (corrected) to reduce heavy natural scarring and blemishes in the hides. It is then coloured with a coating containing opaque pigments and embossed with a grain pattern to ensure a uniformity of colour and resistance to fading."

Again, there are semi-aniline leathers that have added pigments, and semi-aniline leathers made without pigments. Many Shinki hides have protective top coats, but I no not know if they have added pigments.

Incorrect. Shinki clearly have added pigments, which is how they can be "teacore". Think about it. Look at the uniform coloring of any Shinki jacket and you can see clearly that they are pigmented, otherwise you'd see scars, fat wrinkles and general mottling that characterizes full aniline leathers. The "thin layer of finish" which creates that even coloring in combination with the dye has a definite tint or slight pigmentation which acts in concert with the dye to hide the natural mottling and imperfections, e.g. Chromexcel with only the slightest brown pigmentation applied in a surface coat would surely hide the already subtle natural mottling, where if it hadn't been dyed first and was in its natural state it would require at least several coats of pigment to achieve the same effect.

The quote you yourself posted states clearly, they are dyed (aniline portion of "semi aniline") with a "thin finishing layer on the surface" (this protective layer is basically paint). Thus the term "semi aniline" rather than full aniline. It's generally agreed upon aniline leathers are more desirable, as they show any imperfection in the hide and thus need higher grade hides. They're also called "unfinished leathers" because they lack this surface paint or coating which protects the leather against stains etc. Any really high end furniture will be full aniline and thus very susceptible to stains. Semi aniline gives some of the benefit of full aniline but with the extra protection of the painted or sprayed on top coat. Chromexcel has no acrylic topcoat, it's just impregnated with a massive amount of waxes which offer a similar water and stain resistance.

Think of semi aniline like the clear coat of a car, even without any pigment in the clear coat it's still a paint, and it's necessary to have a thin protective clear coat. One can also tint the clear coat to achieve all kinds of effects, but in either case it's still paint.

 

[nick123]

I thought the protective top coat is more of a final waterproofing coat totally separate from the pigments!

 

[jonesy86]

SB's seal goat is a really great hide (I got a custom 70s car coat done in it). I'm currently expecting an Aero in dark seal goat.

Don't find to many goat fans around here. I have been shopping for black goat. Looking for a lighter jacket for milder climates. What are the weight or thickness of different makers goat. Getting a sample from SB, Aero, BK if he ever gets back to me, and Dave Sheeley. Do you have a preference and why? What do you look for in goat. As I said, don't see too many goat fans, so if you would be so kind to share your knowledge and expertise, it would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

 

[dan_t]

Absolutely love my Aero goat half belt. Can't fault it & it's just so easy to wear.

 

[jonesy86]

Pretty cool looking Half Belt, looks like it fits perfectly. No breaking in period for that one is there? What color is it and Is it a Premier?
What thickness and/or weight is the goatskin? How heavy is the jacket? I just bought an Aero Half Belt Deluxe vincenzo horse hide. It is fairly heavy for most of the year where I live. I got a lot of questions don't I.
Thanks

 

[zebedee]

Goat is a great hide because it's light and it is bulletproof. It is pebbled (I think it's cool; not everyone likes it) and does not show much wear. I feel that it's about 2/3 of the thickness of FQHH. It's also very pliable, seems to be as water-repellent as HH and is highly abrasion resistant. I have several Aeros- if I can decide on just two, I'd pick the goat hide one and probably a mid-weight HH one.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I like goat best too.

 

[nick123]

Goat is excellent. It can be bland, but not always, such as above.

 

[jonesy86]

Goat is excellent. It can be bland, but not always, such as above.

Do they do goat in black teacore. That would be cool.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I totally understand your point, that it will take time to find your "true" size. In the past i have been wearing cafe racer jackets in cheap leather and i am confident that this style suits me.

The thing is that i am a guy that goes out a lot and i am looking for a jacket that is not to warm to wear inside of bars.

First of all I will ask sb to get some samples.

Crazy thing just happend to me. I showed my girlfriend pictures of horween and shinki jackets and asked what she likes better. She told me both look super cheap and boring.
Maybe i should break up with her

If there is any advice I can give, it's that you need to gradually condition your girl into liking this stuff. If you do it right after a while, she'll insist you buy a jacket