sick and tired of new scrap appliances.

[LizzieMaine]

The more automation involved, the flimsier the gadget. You think you're saving yourself effort but you're being royally bamboozled.

 

[jamespowers]

The more automation involved, the flimsier the gadget. You think you're saving yourself effort but you're being royally bamboozled.

Exactly!

 

[rocketeer]

You'd be surprised how many people in the Era firmly believed that quality was more important than "the latest and the newest." When General Electric was promoting their "monitor-top" electric refrigerators in the late twenties, one of the main selling points was that they had a possible lifespan of up to 400 *years* based on lab testing. Thruout the Era, Sheaffer promoted its "Lifetime" line of fountain pens -- pens which were manufactured to such a high standard that they were guaranteed for the life of the owner. If you take a close look inside the radios manufactured in the 1930s, you'll see a lot of overengineering -- parts designed and manufactured to exceed operational tolerances, and further designed so that if something did go wrong, it was simple to repair.

People bought these things expecting they wouldn't have to buy another one, or if they did have to buy another one it'd be a long time down the line. It wasn't at all rare for a couple to furnish their home when they got married -- and to still have much of what they'd bought when they celebrated their fiftieth anniversary. That was the ethos of the time. It wasn't until the postwar era that the decline began, and the cult of planned obsolesence became dominant by the mid-fifties. It's been downhill for manufacturing quality and our civilization in general ever since.

I'm afraid I would not be surprised how many here would pay good money for quality products, and I'm one of them, but lets be honest, if there were 250 000 members here that would still be a minority and would not have any impact on production of quality consumer goods. Some goods would still out-price themselves because consumers simply could not afford the initial outlay.
Today quality items are made though often in small numbers. Leather jackets, a favourite item in the lounge made by Aero for example are fantastic quality but they cost a fortune, no matter how good they are, some simply cant afford to pay £600 for everyday wear even if it would last 50 plus years. How about a Kitchenaid food mixer? It may again last a lifetime but would the average housewife pay this today? The food mixer and washing machine were one of the most desirable items a woman could own post war, especially in the UK. Just thought I would throw some male chauvinism in as we are talking from that era.
Reflecting back to things made in China; This is the country that produced the most complex sports stadium ever made for their 2008 Olympics, the Chinese also built the worlds most advanced passenger train, certainly the fastest. But why cant they make a broom that the head will stay on for more than a week? It's not that they cant, they just don't want to

 

[jamespowers]

Reflecting back to things made in China; This is the country that produced the most complex sports stadium ever made for their 2008 Olympics, the Chinese also built the worlds most advanced passenger train, certainly the fastest. But why cant they make a broom that the head will stay on for more than a week? It's not that they cant, they just don't want to

My father-in-law, who actually lives there, says that they laugh at the junk they send us. Great. We snap all the junk up and they treat us with contempt. Wonderful. Fortunately, we get them back because Walmart has many stores there too. I call it the boomerang effect.

 

[59Lark]

I spoke to a gentleman in our town, that fixed appliances, now only vacuums , but years ago he did fix toasters etc, small appliances. The older toasters have a metal activator two different metals that with heat will throw the switch to pop the toast. No lousy electro magnet that fails in 6 months. I maybe using my GE toaster till I retire. Here is hoping, we are to start looking for these items now from here on. 59 LARK.

 

[jamespowers]

I spoke to a gentleman in our town, that fixed appliances, now only vacuums , but years ago he did fix toasters etc, small appliances. The older toasters have a metal activator two different metals that with heat will throw the switch to pop the toast. No lousy electro magnet that fails in 6 months. I maybe using my GE toaster till I retire. Here is hoping, we are to start looking for these items now from here on. 59 LARK.

Looking for? I have them now.
Interestingly, I found a trove of my mother's old wedding presents stashed away in the garage. It was a box of duplicate stuff but a mixer for back then brand new in the box has been working for nearly two decades now without a hitch. The blankets don't pill and fall apart when you wash them. The dishes have patterns that don't wash off and most everything was made right here.

 

[vitanola]

two words: planned obsolescence. And it´s not only China (I´m pretty sure that most of the stuff we get from China was designed and developed by western engineers and designers), it´s a world wide process. In case you haven´t done so yet, you should check out the documentary "The light bulb conspiracy".

"The Light Bulb Conspiracy"! Well it sounds good. UNLESS one understands the (rather simple) engineering characteristics of tungsten filament incandescent light bulbs. The original filament material for light bulbs was carbon, initially carbonized bamboo, after the early 'ninties, a labrotory produced carbonized celluloid filament, flashed with an amorphous carbon coating. These carbon filament lamps were by 1900 or so made to be quite durable, their only problem was that they were terribly inefficient. A typical "1000 hour" carbon lamp produced about 3 1/2 lumens per watt of current consumed. The Shelby "Long Life" carbon lamps were less efficient, producing but two lumens per watt.

The inefficiency of these lamps did much to retard the general acceptance of electric lighting, for in the early days of the last century electricity was quite expensive, running as much as 25 cents a kilowatt-hour, and these inefficient lamps made electric lighting unaffordable.

The new, metallic filament Tungsten lamps could produce as many as fourteen lumens per watt consumed, but only if bulb life was limited, for efficiency of a tungsten lamp is directly related to filament temperature, while life expectancy is inversely related to filament temperature. The limits set on the design life of these light bulbs were intended to force a reasonable level of efficiency, so that electric light would be affordable. Although the cost of electricity dropped precipitously after the introduction of large, efficient turbine generating plants by the 1920's it was still more than ten times as expensive in real terms as it is today, and so efficiency was of paramount importance to consumers.

 

[scottyrocks]

The more automation involved, the flimsier the gadget. You think you're saving yourself effort but you're being royally bamboozled.

My first qwerty keyboard cell phone was an ENV2. In 2 years I had 10 ENV2s. One of the many times I brought one back because something didn't work correctly, the service department guy told me that they are essentially mini-computers so things are bound to go wrong. Before that, I had one regular flip phone that lasted me 2 years before I traded it in on my first ENV2.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I have three phones. One made in 1929, one in 1933, and a new, modern one from 1940. They all work fine, and the only one that ever appears to have had any sort of service work done on it is the 1929, which had updated transmitter and receiver capsules added around 1943, when a lot of old phones were put back into emergency wartime use. (It remained in daily use after that "temporary" upgrade until the late 1960s). As long as central-battery landlines exist, these phones will be perfectly functional.

My refrigerator was built in November 1945. The only repair work ever done on it was done by me -- in 1989, when I installed a new thermostat. I fully expect it to outlive me.

The clock on my mantel was purchased new -- by my great-grandfather, in 1911. It still keeps perfect time.

All these products were manufactured in the USA. We knew how to do it, we knew how to make quality products that would last, and that owners could take pride in. Now we don't. Even if we wanted to, the knowledge of how to make products like that is gone with the generation that made them. And that, in a nutshell, is how civilizations die.

 

[jamespowers]

I have three phones. One made in 1929, one in 1933, and a new, modern one from 1940. They all work fine, and the only one that ever appears to have had any sort of service work done on it is the 1929, which had updated transmitter and receiver capsules added around 1943, when a lot of old phones were put back into emergency wartime use. (It remained in daily use after that "temporary" upgrade until the late 1960s). As long as central-battery landlines exist, these phones will be perfectly functional.

My refrigerator was built in November 1945. The only repair work ever done on it was done by me -- in 1989, when I installed a new thermostat. I fully expect it to outlive me.

The clock on my mantel was purchased new -- by my great-grandfather, in 1911. It still keeps perfect time.

All these products were manufactured in the USA. We knew how to do it, we knew how to make quality products that would last, and that owners could take pride in. Now we don't. Even if we wanted to, the knowledge of how to make products like that is gone with the generation that made them. And that, in a nutshell, is how civilizations die.

And so the Dysgenics begin. Soon we will all be drinking Brawndo instead of water.:eusa_doh:

 

[sheeplady]

I do wish things were more serviceable and there was someone local who would and could fix them. My husband is very mechanical but he is short on time. My 32 year old stand mixer is dying and I fear my 32 year old food processor will be next. I use my appliances hard (especially the stand mixer). I have considered going back to a 1930s stand mixer, but that also needs refurbishing, so I am in the same boat.

And I'm pretty peeved that my stand mixer is starting to break down. I know I shouldn't be (32 years is a good run) but it irritates me to loose my favorite appliance.

 

[Shangas]

Be glad you have things that are well-loved, well-used and which are breaking down. My mother has a bazillion gizmoes at home that she's barely ever touched.

The most memorable one is the pasta-machine. She used it once. NEVER touched it again. It's still in the box, somewhere downstairs in the basement...I think. I haven't seen it since I was ten.

 

[Noirblack]

Apologies in advance as this one is a bit of a rant. It seems like planned obsolescence is being portrayed as the villain here. I'd say the villain in this story is human nature. Most of us want newer, better, fancier, cheaper and faster in our products. And this has always been the way. If not we'd be lucky now to still be sitting around in nature banging stones together to make arrowheads and spear heads. It is just human nature to try to make things better. We have evolved to do this as we have learned to deal with the world over the millenia. If we didn't react to the world and our environment, then we'd just be another species in the fossil record, rather than the species that understands what the fossil record is.

The modern twist is that in the 20th century the pace of change has increased dramatically because technological advances have increased greatly compared to all previous centuries. For example, until the 20th century, people moved about with their feet or on horseback, or horse and wagon. Basic wagon designs weren't changing a lot, but over time changes were made. It was just much slower than today. The changes came about as people tried to improve the wagons. Then along came the car. At first, the pace of change in this industry was fairly slow. The model A..then the model T... and then many more makes and models. And then new models were introduced every year. The cars of today are better in terms of any meaningful measure than the cars of say 50 years ago. However, if you don't like airbags, seatbelts, energy absorbing frames, anti lock breaks, stability control, go ahead and drive one of those built-to-last cars from days gone by. Oh, wait, they didn't last. I'm going to feel free to make up a statistic here and say that cars of today on average last as long as cars from 50 years ago did.

So what happens to the car company that doesn't bring out new features every year? It goes out of business because people stop buying those cars. Same with clothing, same with electronics, same with everything.

As I said, this isn't about planned obsolescence, it is about human nature and our desire to have newer, better, faster etc. This is just the way we are. Even as much as people in this forum appreciate things past, we are all guilty of being humans and sharing the drive to improve our material conditions. If you disagree, please tell me all about how you are participating on this forum with your DOS computer, or your Commodore 64, or your typewriter. Or maybe you are sending and receiving messages with a telegraph. Unless you have upgraded to Compuserve.

So if we buy products that we will be replacing as more advanced ones come out, why should they last for ever? If you wanted a widget that had the latest features and was built to last forever that just wouldn't make any sense because in a few years you would want a newer widget. So why pay the price premium for an unbreakable widget? The market for any product simply does not require unbreakable or even super long lasting items. If you disagree with me, please let me know via telegraph. Manufacturers could make things that would last a long time. Don't think that we are getting worse at producing things. It's just that the things only have to be good enough for the market. And the market simply doesn't demand products that don't break down. The product only has to last long enough for your to feel like you got your money out of it before it is replaced. If it breaks to early you don't buy that brand again. But if it lasts long enough (which is a subjective measure) you say that brand is good and you might buy another later when the time comes.

So now for the ultimate irony. Some people on this forum look to the past, the Golden Era, and they think that things were done so well back then. During the Golden Era, consumers also wanted better, newer, faster, with more features in their products. Don't you think that the car was viewed as a improvement over the wagon, the automatic transmission was viewed as an improvement of the standard transmission? Wasn't the refrigerator viewed as an improvement over the ice box? The automatic washing machine an improvement over the wash board? As consumers demanded newer features and the replacement cycle sped up, it made no sense to build a product that lasted forever. So the actual folks who lived in the golden era were big on material improvement too. After all, they were human.

OK, thanks for reading this far. Rant complete...calming down....

 

[LizzieMaine]

And again I'll quote Vance Packard: "Planned Obsolescence is the systematic attempt of business to make us wasteful, debt-ridden, permanently discontented individuals." Some people may call that "Progress," but I say it's spinach, and I say the hell with it. Indeed, the success they've had in convincing the public that disposable is good enough, that the latest Hot New Features are things they just can't live without, and the amount of money people throw away on things they're just going to throw away is proof positive to me that Packard had the whole thing fully sussed out in 1960. And if the consumer goods of 1960 were junky compared to what they had been before the war (and Packard makes a very strong case that they were), what does that leave us with today? Junk, junkier, junkiest.

Features? What's the point? A refrigerator, for example, has only one real purpose: to keep the milk cold. You want a glass of cold water? There's the sink over there on the wall, knock yourself out. What's the point of having another faucet in the refrigerator door? I can watch the ball game on a black-and-white television set just as easily as I can on a color set, and I can actually enjoy the game more listening to it on the radio. A wringer washing machine gets my clothes clean, and uses far less power and water than an automatic. And a rope in the back yard gets my clothes dry at no cost whatsoever, and they come out smelling better too. I don't get the point of all these "features." How, exactly, would "features" enhance or improve my life? My milk is cold, my clothes are clean, and I know how the Red Sox came out. What more do I need?

People who want to embrace their own chumpitude and play along with the planned obsolescence game have every right to do so, but a society built on such ooh-gimme-the-shiny-trinket acquisitiveness is a society with an exceedingly hollow core. Personally, it'd make me very happy to see the mall-hopping society of today suddenly reduced to scrubbing their washing on a washboard. It might build some character.

(And every computer I've ever owned has been salvaged -- the one I'm using right now, a ten-year-old Mac G4, was found at the side of the road. When it dies, as it inevitably will, I'll scrounge another one from somewhere. I don't need or have any interest in "the latest features," all I need to be able to do on a computer is send emails for work -- so the day will never dawn when I'll be willing to pay several hundred dollars or more for something with the lifespan of a goldfish. )

 

[Wire9Vintage]

I have two coffee grinders that will last forever. The only thing is that you have to crank it. You are the moving part. They last forever that way---you wear out first.

Actually that's a good point. Quality doesn't necessarily equal a number of bells and whistles. I tell you, when my electric car window died (two year old car!), I was missing the old hand crank windows real bad! I think a KitchenAid stand mixer....even a new one.... Is a good example. Same old simple design, still made of metal, still apparently built to last a long time.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I tell you, when my electric car window died (two year old car!), I was missing the old hand crank windows real bad!

Can you say Titanic on wheels? :doh:

 

[sheeplady]

So if we buy products that we will be replacing as more advanced ones come out, why should they last for ever? If you wanted a widget that had the latest features and was built to last forever that just wouldn't make any sense because in a few years you would want a newer widget. So why pay the price premium for an unbreakable widget? The market for any product simply does not require unbreakable or even super long lasting items.

I am extremely (extremely) sentimental and hate change. I do not want a new standmixer. Seriously, I do not want one. Put a brand new shiny one and my old one (fixed) and in a hot minute I'd pick mine. It's not like they've invented anything new with recent standmixers. Mine might be ugly and old, but it's mine. The same with my washing machine, my sewing machine, and my spinning wheels. I am one of those people who gets sad when something dies or I have to make a shirt into rags. I'm incredibly attached to my things. I don't like having to learn how to do new things, and new technology normally means I have to change my patterns.

Are there certain items I replace? Sure. I replace my computer every 5-6 years. I replace my cellphone about every 4, if possible (I've had them break beyond repair). Unfortunately I need both for my job and they have to be usable and meet certain requirements to run the software I run.

 

[ThemThereEyes]

Actually that's a good point. Quality doesn't necessarily equal a number of bells and whistles. I tell you, when my electric car window died (two year old car!), I was missing the old hand crank windows real bad! I think a KitchenAid stand mixer....even a new one.... Is a good example. Same old simple design, still made of metal, still apparently built to last a long time.

I love our Kitchen Aid stand mixer, it is very reliable and we've had it nearly 20 years, but there is no room for improvement. It has all the features we need.
I can't wait to go back to the local antiques shop I recently visited. They have one of those old coffee grinders. It'll grind my caffeine beans AND relieve stress!

 

[Noirblack]

Lizzie, I didn't use the word "progress". You completely misunderstand my point. I'm noting that the changes we make to any products stem from humanity's instinct to deal with the surrounding environment. You can surely point out some things that aren't necessary. If we didn't have colour tv, that would be no big disadvantage. We don't need tv, we don't need the radio, we don't need the internet. But all this stems from our drive to create and adapt. You can say "don't need it" to anything. It doesn't matter. Products will keep changing because companies will change them to keep up with demand for change.

You mention that you don't need a faucet in your fridge as you have one in your wall. Why go to the bother of indoor plumbing? Why not just have a well outside? Why not just stick with an outhouse? Who needs indoor plumbing? Your milk is cold. Why bother? Just keep a cow in your backyard. Why do you scrounge computers? It doesn't matter that you aren't buy them, you are still upgrading to keep up with change.

It doesn't matter what your particular proclivities and preferences are. Humanity just moves along as it will. There's no right or wrong about it, it just is.

 

[Shangas]

Actually that's a good point. Quality doesn't necessarily equal a number of bells and whistles. I tell you, when my electric car window died (two year old car!), I was missing the old hand crank windows real bad! I think a KitchenAid stand mixer....even a new one.... Is a good example. Same old simple design, still made of metal, still apparently built to last a long time.

You know what they say. The more that moves, the more there is to break...