Show us your Guns!

[David Conwill]

In fact, it is probably impossible to find a 100% original M1 Carbine unless someone has one that came right off the assembly line.

Funny you should mention that. As it happens, my maternal grandfather was an inspector at SSG during the war and one of the nicer shooting specimens followed him home and now belongs to my uncle.

 

[Landman]

Funny you should mention that. As it happens, my maternal grandfather was an inspector at SSG during the war and one of the nicer shooting specimens followed him home and now belongs to my uncle.

I bet that is a nice one. I'd love to see it.

My Dad carried one in the Pacific during WWII and he said that sometimes when they cleaned them they would get together and do it in a group. They would take them all apart and one guy would clean the barrels another guy would clean something else and then they would put them back together. You can imagine how the small parts would get mixed up in a situation like that.

 

[Kirk H.]

Well, that’s interesting. I haven’t un-mummified the M1A1 and all that is marked on the package is “M1A1" in contrast with the Quality Hardware gun which is likewise mummified but clearly marked for the maker.

Am I correct in my recollection that a Winchester Carbine is nonetheless fairly collectible in its own right? Also, how would I confirm whether the M1A1 stock was WWII? I think Dad owned the gun since the 1970s - was anyone reproducing the M1A1 stock back then?

Thanks everyone for the responses regarding the stocks. I was thinking CMP, but I thought I'd get other opinions. I believe there's a decent gun show in Birch Run, although I don't relish the idea of attending one in the current political climate.

I know what you mean about the political climate. Just got back from the one here in Charlotte NC. News trucks were there and the prices were so inflated. As far as stocks, you may want to check Kahr Arms, they own Auto Ordnance and they do sell reproduction stocks and parts for the M-1 Carbine including the paratrooper stocks.

Regards

Kirk

 

[Kirk H.]

Yes, Winchesters are definitely highly collectable. The Rockola and a true M1A1 is probably the most sought after because fewer of those were made. More Inlands were made than any another manufacturer. They are all highly collectable though.

I did go back and look in some of my books and all original M1A1's were made by Inland. However, it was not uncommon to change out parts and stocks once they were issued. In fact, it is probably impossible to find a 100% original M1 Carbine unless someone has one that came right off the assembly line. The manufacturers shared parts so it was not uncommon to find one manufacturer's part in another manufacturer's carbine. So without knowing when that part was put in there then you have no way of knowing if it was original.

With regards to the M1A1 stock it is hard to described how to tell the difference but if you can find a picture of a real one you will be able to see some subtle differences in how the wood was shaped. It will also have some cartouches on it. There are some very good reproductions out there but I'm not sure when they started making them. I'm not positive but I don't think the government ever used any replacement M1A1 stocks so an original would be WWII vintage.

This website has a lot of good info on the M1 Carbine.

http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/rifles.html

I have an Inland that was made in 1945. It has a bayonet lug on it though. I was told that after WW II a lot of the carbines were put back in storage and retrofitted with lugs and stocks and then issued to the troops in Korea. If anyone has more information on that I would love to know it. I picked mine up back in the early 1990's for 125.00 and when I see what they are going for now....All I can think is that was a good investment. They are great and fun to shoot.

Kirk H.

 

[MPicciotto]

I have an Inland that was made in 1945. It has a bayonet lug on it though. I was told that after WW II a lot of the carbines were put back in storage and retrofitted with lugs and stocks and then issued to the troops in Korea. If anyone has more information on that I would love to know it. I picked mine up back in the early 1990's for 125.00 and when I see what they are going for now....All I can think is that was a good investment. They are great and fun to shoot.

Kirk H.

Is the barrel marked "Blue Sky/Arlington, VA"? They were a big importer of these about that time. Reimported from Korea. With carbines unless you personally know the history of the rifle be very, very, very skeptical of an specimen billed as being in original configuration and/or "correct" parts. As was previously stated these had parts pretty well mixed up in the field and then later during re arsenal processes. The vast majority now have the type 3 barrel band with the bayonet lug.

Matt

 

[Stearmen]

I bet that is a nice one. I'd love to see it.

My Dad carried one in the Pacific during WWII and he said that sometimes when they cleaned them they would get together and do it in a group. They would take them all apart and one guy would clean the barrels another guy would clean something else and then they would put them back together. You can imagine how the small parts would get mixed up in a situation like that.

Thats funny! My Dad was issued an M1A here in the States, when he got to England, they took it away from him and gave him a Tommy Gun. He was with the 9th Air Force Troop Carrier, he had little need for the Thompson. He stood guard duty once, was told to watch for NAZI paratroopers and saboteurs, he never saw either!

 

[Kirk H.]

Is the barrel marked "Blue Sky/Arlington, VA"? They were a big importer of these about that time. Reimported from Korea. With carbines unless you personally know the history of the rifle be very, very, very skeptical of an specimen billed as being in original configuration and/or "correct" parts. As was previously stated these had parts pretty well mixed up in the field and then later during re arsenal processes. The vast majority now have the type 3 barrel band with the bayonet lug.

Matt

Hey Matt, thanks for the response. The only markings on the barrel are" Inland A Division of General Motors 11-44". The stock appears to be a lighter wood than walnut and has the oval cut. I realize that it probably has all kinds of different parts. I just can not believe how much they have gone up in price at least in this area. I saw several on a shelf in a local gun store ranging in price from 900-1500. A co worker of mine just picked up one made by Winchester.

Kirk

 

[Landman]

"U.S. M1 Carbines, Wartime Production, by Craig Riesch" is a very good book about M1 Carbines. Another good reference book about M1 Carbines is "The M1 Carbine Owner's Guide, by Larry L. Ruth".

 

[Doublegun]

Last summer I had the opportunity to shoot an M1 that was issued to the father of a life-long friend. For years I had admired M1's from afar so I jumped at the opportunity to actually shoot one. First clip, fired at paper plate sized target 100-yards away, standing using a post to stabalize my hold, every round hit the target. Now, I am a big fan of peep sights but I was amazed at just how easy it was to shoot such a light rifle so accurately with little practice. Truly effortless. The other thing that struck me was just how slow the .30 cal round is. I could actually hear the slug hit the backboard after the report of the shot.

An honest M1 makes a great gun for plinking (although not the most inexpensive option to feed) and there are a lot of them on the market and I would not be surprised if one finds it's way into my safe.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Here's my August, 1943 Inland. I bought it maybe twenty five years ago. The stock and the receiver have matching numbers, but I recall there being some mismatched numbers elsewhere in the rifle. There are two interesting marks on the stock. One is of crossed cannon in a circle and the other are six meaningless (to me) letters in a square. Anyone here know what these symbols mean?

AF

 

[Rathdown]

Merely a guess Colonel Finch, but I believe the crossed cannons device is the logotype of the Springfield Armory, the company which may have retailed the carbine when it became surplus. A better (closer) photo would undoubtedly reveal more detail.

As to the second cartouche, I really couldn't hazard a guess.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Thank you! That's one mystery solved. I bought my carbine from a small gunshop in this area. He had about two dozen that I picked through before I selected this one. I seem to recall him telling me they all had come from Israel. And I remember paying about $125.00 for it.

AF

 

[Atticus Finch]

Ain't google amazing? "NPM/FJA" stands for "National Poastal Meter/Frank J. Atwood". Evidently, Lt. Col. Frank J. Atwood was an inspector. Since the serial numbers on my carbine's stock and the breach match, I'm now thinking I've got a National Postal Meter carbine with an Inland barrel.

AF

 

[Landman]

Ain't google amazing? "NPM/FJA" stands for "National Poastal Meter/Frank J. Atwood". Evidently, Lt. Col. Frank J. Atwood was an inspector. Since the serial numbers on my carbine's stock and the breach match, I'm now thinking I've got a National Postal Meter carbine with an Inland barrel.

AF

Atticus,

That is a beautiful carbine. You are correct that NPM/FJA represents National Postal Meter and FJA represents Col. Frank J. Atwood who inspected the firearm for the U.S. Ordnance Department. The wheel and cannon is the ordnance department acceptance mark. There should also be a "P" on the heel of the pistol grip.

The actual manufacturer and serial number will be under the rear sight and not on the barrel. You can date it by the serial number because barrels were changed out often. The serial number on the stock would not have been done originally but was probably done by the Israeli military.

There are a lot of very good fake stocks out there but since you bought yours 25 years ago that is a very good indication it is probably real. Here are some links to info on stocks and cartouches.

http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/stocks.html

http://www.trfindley.com/pgsnstmpsm1.html

 

[Landman]

Atticus,

Col. Frank J. Atwood also inspected Ithaca and Remington Rand 45's for the ordnance department. Below is a picture of my Ithaca with his initials under the slide release behind the trigger. The U.S. Ordance acceptance mark is on the other side of the slide and the "P" proof mark is on top of the slide. Unfortunately I don't have any good pictures of those. Besides the incredible history associated with them it's the little details like this that makes collecting these old firearms so interesting to me.

 

[David Conwill]

I bet that is a nice one. I'd love to see it.

I've only seen it once, and never fired it. My dad had fired it a couple times with my grandfather and said it was a very nice shooter. Unfortunately, at some point he'd thought it would be a good idea to refinish the stock all bright and shiney. As far as I recall, the metal was untouched original, though.

I think I've already mentioned the Sporterized Span-Am Krag that could no longer hit a 4x8 sheet of plywood due to the cut down barrel... :-(

 

[Atticus Finch]

Thanks for all the replies about my carbine. I'll look more closely this evening and try to see if there are other marks that I've missed. With doubt, the most conspicuous mark on the weapon is the serial number stamped into the left side of the stock. Not only is it stamped with large numbers, but those numbers have been highlighted with white paint. You can read the dang number from across the room. And it matches the number on the receiver…under the rear sight. But if the Israeli Military copied the serial number from the receiver and stamped it onto the stock, then the maker of the receiver remains a mystery.

At this point I’m pretty sure the stock was made by National Postal Meter. Of course, the barrel is an Inland. And from the information kindly provided by Landman, I’ve also learned that my carbine’s stock has an oval cut strap slot as well as low wood. And, unlike its current owner, it isn’t a “pot belly”.

AF

 

[Landman]

Atticus,

The manufacturer's name can be hard to see because it is partially covered by the rear sight. Get a flashlight and look underneath the rear sight above the serial number and you should be able to make it out. You don't have to remove the sight. The sight just hangs over the name. Originally these had flip up peep sights in the rear but were later upgraded to the adjustable sight.

 

[plain old dave]

Why can't revolver guys count past six? They don't need to. Three .45 Colts, a Ruger Bisley Vaquero, a Stoeger/Uberti Bisley and an Allen Fire Arms/Uberti Cattleman.

 

[rjb1]

+1 on carbine manufacturers' names being hard to see under the rear sights. One helpful hint is to get a complete list of the WWII carbine manufacturers, so if you can only make out the first letter or two and/or the last letter or two you can figure out what it is.