Seeking advice about a waistcoat and trousers...

[fluteplayer07]

I have recently gotten my hands on some vintage wool... About 3 1/2 yards of it. I have plans to make it into a waistcoat and some trousers, so now comes the time for me to start some serious research. Please bear with me as I stumble through this, as my suiting terminology is rudimentary at best.

I have a good tailor now, who I'm fairly confident can sew me some vintage style clothes. I'm going for some 30's style trousers with one half of the fabric, and most likely a double breasted waistcoat with the other. The problem is, although I have a basic understanding of how things look, I am not a vintage clothing collector, so I don't have the personal experience of examining hundreds of suits from many decades. It's not feasible for me to scour the hundreds of pages of threads here, so I'm calling upon the pros here for a bit of advice.

As far as the trousers: As I understand, 30's trousers were wide and straight, high waisted with suspender buttons, usually on the inside. A rise of 13" or more (subject to a person's build?), button fly, and the flap over the waistband button extends across the waistband. (As opposed to being flush with the fly, like a pair of jeans or casual pants.) What is the difference between forward pleats, British pleats, etc.? I think 2 pleats were the norm? Were the pockets vertical, slanted, or horizontal for dressier styles? I believe back pockets were not flapped. Were there usually belt loops? Was the back of the trousers higher than the front?

Regarding the waistcoat: I would like a double breasted waistcoat; these were 6 button, normally very form-fitting, with peak lapels? And I believe the bottom of the waistcoat lowered just far enough to meet the bottom of the trousers' waistband? Was a belted back more common? What about the number of pockets?

I know the basics of what is required when it comes to having bespoke clothing made. Communication and specificity is essential, as is patience and a cool head. Is there anything that I need to be aware of as I begin this process?

I know most of this is likely available throughout this forum, but I don't know where to start within the thousands of pages here. Searches have thus far yielded sporadic answers at best. If you were to even just provide a link to where I could find an answer, that would be great. Thanks so much for the help!

Cheers,

 

[Nick D]

As far as the trousers: As I understand, 30's trousers were wide and straight, high waisted with suspender buttons, usually on the inside. A rise of 13" or more (subject to a person's build?), button fly, and the flap over the waistband button extends across the waistband. (As opposed to being flush with the fly, like a pair of jeans or casual pants.) What is the difference between forward pleats, British pleats, etc.? I think 2 pleats were the norm? Were the pockets vertical, slanted, or horizontal for dressier styles? I believe back pockets were not flapped. Were there usually belt loops? Was the back of the trousers higher than the front?

The rise is mainly dictated by your build. The waistband has to sit at the right place, but if you give him a base figure he can then work from there. Brace buttons were usually on the outside, but if you're putting belt loops on as well I'd put them on the inside. If you're only going to wear the trousers with the waistcoat I'd say don't put belt loops on at all. But if they will be worn without it, then go ahead. British style pleats open towards the centre, I think they hang better and look better (of course, there are some who will disagree, this is just my own preference).

Regarding the waistcoat: I would like a double breasted waistcoat; these were 6 button, normally very form-fitting, with peak lapels? And I believe the bottom of the waistcoat lowered just far enough to meet the bottom of the trousers' waistband? Was a belted back more common? What about the number of pockets?

The bottom edge of the waistcoat should at least cover the waistband, but it can be a little lower, too. The front of a db can be straight or with one central point (double point styles are uncommon). I've seen then with shawl and peak lapel, as this isn't going to be part of a full suit maybe shawl would be less formal? Two or four pockets is the norm, four is perhaps more vintage-looking since waistcoats are so often 2-pocket these days. I've seen these with and without back belt, if it's going to be bespoke you don't really need the belt since it will be tailored close-fitting anyway, but you may want it for weight fluctuations or just aesthetically.

 

[Shangas]

I haven't seen waistcoats with four pockets on any but the old-fashioned styled, old-fashioned or the really expensive waistcoats. So if you're aiming for a 1930s look, I think a four-pocket waistcoat would work best. I would go for a waistcoat without a belted back, but that's just me.

 

[Edward]

Seems to me that on a bespoke waistcoat the adjustment belt would be superfluous. Is not the point of those to improve the fit of an off the rack garment?

 

[Nick D]

I have two vintage three-piece suits, one of which is definitely bespoke, both have straps on the waistcoat. I think in the case of a bespoke waistcoat it's probably aesthetic, sort of like straps on the back of trousers, which really shouldn't be tightened much because they cause things to bunch. They also add a little reinforcement to the back seam, which is under more stress because the waistcoat is very fitted.

 

[Edward]

I have two vintage three-piece suits, one of which is definitely bespoke, both have straps on the waistcoat. I think in the case of a bespoke waistcoat it's probably aesthetic, sort of like straps on the back of trousers, which really shouldn't be tightened much because they cause things to bunch. They also add a little reinforcement to the back seam, which is under more stress because the waistcoat is very fitted.

Ah, good point... I didn't think of the additional support factor.

 

[fluteplayer07]

I haven't decided the belted back yet. How large should the "v" on the front of the waistcoat be? Small and high up, or large so the tie is shown off? The button stance placed high and spread out, or short and condensed? Does anyone have some examples of some DB waistcoats to show?

Should the waistband of the trousers be straight all the way around, or raised in the back? Solid, or with a 'v' in the back of it? And are the waistbands of vintage trousers wider than on modern trousers? Is there a 'flap' over the waistband button/slide? With how many buttons is the waistband fastened, one, or two in a line over each other? Are the cuffs wide?

And am I correct in the assumption that the legs are straight and untapered? I always think the legs are far too wide, but I'm pretty sure it just takes some getting used to. I've heard that some of the legs can be up to 12" wide. Normal for the period?

Thanks again for answering all my questions.

 

[Shangas]

If I recall from my readings, the V of a waistcoat (between the shoulders, I assume?) should reach the bottom of your sternum (the hard, bony bit at the top of your ribcage). If it's above the bottom/middle of the sternum, it's too high.

Jeeves (black stroller) and Wooster (grey, three-piece suit with the DB waistcoat).

 

[Baron Kurtz]

The big sticky at the top of the suits page is the place to go for the good threads.

All the features you're talking about in the first post (belt loops, waistband closure, pockets etc. etc.) are all over the place in 1930s trousers. I am convinced that ANY combination of features you go with, someone here will be able to show images of an original 1930s example. There's nothing new in menswear.

bk

 

[fluteplayer07]

Thanks for the advice guys. Good to know that basically, I can't go wrong within these general parameters.

A couple more questions, though, if you don't mind. Would a flapped back pocket on the trousers be regarded as more casual? What about a raised back, like Sproily's? (Ignoring the belted cinch-back, of course)

Thanks,

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I assume you have a bricks and mortar tailor? If you're going the online route, prepare to be very disappointed.

I would advise buying a pair of vintage trousers - get some really knocked about ones for cheap - that have the style you want, and giving those to the tailor to copy. It shouldn't matter if they fit or not. The tailor should be competent to make you a pattern from the pair you give him/her. This will make it much easier for the tailor to work out how to make the trousers. Otherwise I fear you'll end up with a pair of modern trousers with a high waist, not a 1930s-looking pair of trousers (believe me, there is a HUGE difference). To be honest, when you're saying to a tailor "I want this this this this and that feature", they'll nod, say "yeah", and then they'll give you what they think you want. This will almost invariably be wrong. Just look at all the mycustomtailor et al. DISASTERS posted around here. Even face to face with a tailor in their shop, it's difficult to convince them to make what you want. Once you go away and leave the fabric, that's it. If they cut it wrong - especially with a limited amount of fabric - there's no going back.

Tailors like Rudie's (http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?54529-Bespoke-trousers-extremely-heavy-vintage-linen-twill-a-pictorial-review) and my man in London who will make exact copies, are very thin on the ground.

 

[Matt_the_chap]

Unless of course you ask Magnoli whether he'd be willing to make them - http://www.magnoliclothiers.com/index.php .

He's the only 'e-tailor' I'd go to for anything vintage-styled/inspired and fairly reasonable in price too. He seems very accommodating as well - I'm waiting rather happily for a pair of Oxford bags for which he's incorporated all the features I've asked for.

 

[Rudie]

My experience with Magnoli has been quite disappointing so far. I had one shirt made which I explicitly asked to be made with unfused collar and cuffs. He assured me this was possible, but the shirt I received was fused all over the place. He readily suggested to have it altered but given the quite sloppy workmanship I didn't think it was worth the extra postage. Even the breast pockets were off.

I also ordered a custom cardigan from him. That was more than six months ago. After two or there months I asked what was wrong and he said there was trouble with their knitting department and he'd keep me informed about the progress. No news since then. All this with advance payment. I don't think I'll order from Magnoli again.

I second the Baron's post. Find yourself a brick and mortar tailor and stay away from the online stuff. You WILL be disappointed if you order online.

 

[fluteplayer07]

I ordered a pair of Hollywood waist trousers from Indy, and they had to be returned for some repairs, and the cut of the legs were too large for me. There's still a few problems with them even after I got them back, such as the right pocket is torn, and the left cuff is frayed. The polyester blend fabric drapes weird and pills where the fabric is heavily worn. I'm not paying another $40 to send them back. Indy was helpful in trying to rectify the issues, though, and gave me $20 in store credit.

I have a bricks-and-mortar tailor in mind for this. I don't know how accustomed to vintage styles he is, but I'm thinking of having him work with some modern fabric to make sure the fit is right, before I have him make the real thing with my vintage cloth.

Will scans of old ads, and pictures of pairs from here be sufficient reference for a tailor, if I cannot obtain any real examples? Or am I best to do some hunting first? The thrift stores around here are utterly useless.

 

[Rudie]

I'd get some cheap worn out vintage stuff from Ebay like Baron Kurtz suggested. I supplied my trousermaker with lots of pictures and brought several vintage trousers when we bespoke the trousers and also for the fittings. She took measurements off the vintage trousers (like how deep the pleats were, how wide the bottoms of the legs were etc.) and had a good look at the workmanship. It's much more likely to get good results when you supply vintage trousers.

 

[John in Covina]

https://fosterhoneng11fourthblock.wikispaces.com/Fashion+in+the+1920s
On this page about 2/3rds of the way down in mens fashion below the ABC image and above the great Gatsby image is one of the fashion drawings that comes to mind.