Ronald Lacey - Toht Fedora

[Pilot99]

I apologize if this has been addressed in a different posting, but I have looked around on the forums and didn't see topics that pertained to this. As an Indiana Jones fan I really like the fedora that he wore, but even more so I liked the one Toht had. If anyone has any information on what type/brand of hat or even maybe a place to find one that is similar to that I would appreciate it. I know originally Indiana Jones hats were made by Herbert Johnson...but I was not sure if all the Indiana Jones movie fedora's were made by the same maker. Any suggestions would be appreciated....the amount of time spent on google was not very inspiring. Here are a few example from the movie:

 

[Not-Bogart13]

I have done this particular hunt already. I have found one hat that is "close enough" but I know now that a true duplicate would require going custom or getting a lucky find in the vintage market.

I have never found an satisfactory info on the actual maker of the movie Toht hat, but it might have been Herbert Johnson or Christy's.

What I found for a 'close enough" is one this page;
http://millerhats.com/mdressfelt_index/teardrop.htm

The Queens Dress Hat. If you ask them for it open crowned, they will do it, and you can shape it like Toht's by yourself.

For a custom, I know that Optimo has done a few Toht recreations. Also, Tumwater Hats or Art Fawcett have the means to make one.

 

[Pilot99]

I have bought a fedora from Graham before at Optimo, I'll definitely shoot him an e-mail to see what he can do, just not sure I'm ready to spend another big chunk of cash lol. The queen's dress hat is remarkably similar as you said, but I'm not particularly confident in my ability to crease hats...since I am new at this still.

 

[Lefty]

You could buy the cheaper hat and send it to Optimo to be blocked. Graham often puts a sort of center dent with fingers - I don't know how else to describe it - that looks a bit like the crease in that first shot. This is the best photo I've got of it right now.

 

[tonyb]

That's a nice style, Pilot. I understand why it appeals to you.

Most any reasonably well-equipped shop could make you a pretty darned accurate replica. But, you know, that would run into a bit of scratch.

 

[Delthayre]

Thwarted by money!

I've tried before to find more about that hat, but it has attracted, understandably, decidedly less attention and interest than a certain other hat from that film.

I've occasionally tried to guess at the dimensions. My guess is something like a 5 1/2" crown when open, a 2 1/2" to 2 5/8" brim with a 17 ligne black crown ribbon and 9 ligne black edge binding. There are, however, very crude and roughly guessed estimates.

That's a nice style, Pilot. I understand why it appeals to you.

Most any reasonably well-equipped shop could make you a pretty darned accurate replica. But, you know, that would run into a bit of scratch.

If I ever run into one of those 'bits of scratch' I hope to commission a replica of it from either your or Mister Fawcett as a wedding gift for a friend, although as things are now, it might have to be an anniversary gift.

 

[tonyb]

I've occasionally tried to guess at the dimensions. My guess is something like a 5 1/2" crown when open, a 2 1/2" to 2 5/8" brim with a 17 ligne black crown ribbon and 9 ligne black edge binding. There are, however, very crude and roughly guessed estimates.

I'd guess close to the same. Perhaps just a bit more brim (2 3/4, maybe?). Crown height sounds about right, as does the edge binding. For some reason I'm torn on that band ribbon, though. Your guess is as good as mine, maybe better. About all that gives me pause is that in all these rolls of ribbon I got in the case here, I don't think a one of them is 17 ligne. Lotsa 16 and 19, and even some 18, if memory serves, but I doubt there's any 17. That certainly doesn't mean it doesn't exist, or even that it was uncommon, just that none of it has ever made its way to me.

 

[jlee562]

Somebody on COW posted a scree cap where it appeared to show an HJ logo in the liner.

 

[Not-Bogart13]

I'd guess close to the same. Perhaps just a bit more brim (2 3/4, maybe?). Crown height sounds about right, as does the edge binding. For some reason I'm torn on that band ribbon, though. Your guess is as good as mine, maybe better.

I suppose that without the true crown and brim stats, we can't really be sure of the ribbon width, can we. But I would say slightly wider than the Indy hat ribbon. I don't know lignes from brick in the head, but the Indy ribbon is 1.5" wide. I do agree with Tony on the brim width.

Coincidentally, Tony, something along this line was one of the "ideas" I was tossing around in my head recently. lol

 

[Chinaski]

You could buy the cheaper hat and send it to Optimo to be blocked. Graham often puts a sort of center dent with fingers - I don't know how else to describe it - that looks a bit like the crease in that first shot. This is the best photo I've got of it right now.

I'm not sure if I understand "center dent with fingers." Is there a way to explain that one, Lefty?

 

[cptjeff]

Somebody on COW posted a scree cap where it appeared to show an HJ logo in the liner.

Which would make sense to me. It looks like it came off the same block Indy's hat did, just in a different color and with a bound edge.

Getting a Fed IV in black and sending it off to one of our resident hatters to have the brim trimmed and bound might be an option. Others have done similar, IIRC.

 

[Sam Craig]

I hate sounding stupid, but in this case I obviously am .... But what is TOHT?

Please ... it's driving be nuts:rage:

 

[Havana]

Toht is the character's name from the film.

 

[Pilot99]

I hate sounding stupid, but in this case I obviously am .... But what is TOHT?

Please ... it's driving be nuts:rage:

Toht was Ronald Lacey's character in Raiders of the lost ark, the guy who dressed in all black, kind of a gestapo looking guy who did the dirty work.

 

[scottyrocks]

Toht was Ronald Lacey's character in Raiders of the lost ark, the guy who dressed in all black, kind of a gestapo looking guy who did the dirty work.

i was under the impression he was gestapo. who else would wear that outfit in the desert?

 

[Sam Craig]

The gentleman with the oddly scarred hand who perspired so in the desert.

I mean, c'mon ... the only thing that makes less sense than wearing a heavy leather jacket in the desert is wearing a heavier black leather overcoat on top of a suit

And he has the GALL to suggest that we Americans don't know how to dress

I mean ... really

And about Karen Allen ... such a nicely dressed lady ... most of the time

Anyway ... where was I?

Oh yeah, so Toht was his name?

Huh go figure![huh]

 

[Stan]

Mr. Death

Hi,

As I called him. His name is a take-off on Todt, which is the German word for death. Pronounced the same, spelled differently.

I, too, always thought that his hat was off the same block and by the same hatter as Indy's hat - just finished a bit more dressy with a wider ribbon and edge binding.

If I had to guess, I'd say that it sports a 19 ligne, but would be open to it also being 16 ligne.

Oh, and a ligne, usually pronounced 'line', is 1/11th of an inch. Someone had to come up with yet another unit of measurement! I wound up making a rule for lignes in my machine shop on the back of a basic 6-inch one-sided steel rule. Not that I think I'll ever see a 66 ligne ribbon! lol

later!

Stan

 

[Pilot99]

i was under the impression he was gestapo. who else would wear that outfit in the desert?

Yeah you are probably right, I mean the gestapo was established in 1933 and raiders is set in 1936 so it is quite possible

 

[Pilot99]

Hi,

As I called him. His name is a take-off on Todt, which is the German word for death. Pronounced the same, spelled differently.

I, too, always thought that his hat was off the same block and by the same hatter as Indy's hat - just finished a bit more dressy with a wider ribbon and edge binding.

If I had to guess, I'd say that it sports a 19 ligne, but would be open to it also being 16 ligne.

Oh, and a ligne, usually pronounced 'line', is 1/11th of an inch. Someone had to come up with yet another unit of measurement! I wound up making a rule for lignes in my machine shop on the back of a basic 6-inch one-sided steel rule. Not that I think I'll ever see a 66 ligne ribbon! lol

later!

Stan

Thanks for the info, this along with everything else I'll take in to consideration when attempting to get this hat made, should be interesting lol.

 

[avedwards]

Yeah you are probably right, I mean the gestapo was established in 1933 and raiders is set in 1936 so it is quite possible

And they steriotypically wear black hats, black suits, black leather overcoats and black leather gloves. Personally I think the steriotype is a bit exaggerated. They probably did wear fedoras and coats, but all black seems to be a bit much considering they were supposed to be the secret police and not over-suspicious mobsters.

However, we need to bear in mind that these films have little historical accuracy a lot of the time. Indy uses a bag issued in the early 40s, and a lot of the German machine guns were made after the time the films are set in. That's not a complaint as they are not supposed to be historically accurate period dramas but action/adventure films.