Rising crime- what are your theories?

[Viola]

I agree poverty is no excuse, but your line about how if the government doesn't respect the people, why should the people respect the government, reminded me of a homeless guy my mom knew who got beat within an inch of his life, and the cops didn't do anything because the complaintant (the guy) had no address to file and they KNOW who did it, but not where they live either.

So he just lost his backpack of stuff and got a concussion and a bunch of other injuries but hey no big it was no one important.

I was seeing red for weeks on that one.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

Daisy- I am with you.

Portland, Maine used to enjoy relatively crime free living. That has changed over the last five years. We now have graffiti on historic buildings, more car break-ins and vandalism, we even had two kids shooting pellet guns at moving cars on the highway last week, many more robberies, purse snatchings and so on. Even such "petty" crimes are of concern to me.

I don't want public safety to become something of the past when people become nostalgic for the good old days.

Kind of off topic, but has to be said. Portland is a beautiful city. I go there about four times a year. I'm sad to hear about the rising crime and vandalism rate.

I like hearing all of your takes on this problem. I wish our local government, who does nothing for crimes, would be as passionate as you all are.

 

[Rosie]

This is a very interesting topic. One that I, living in the neighborhood I do face and being a teacher I hear about a lot of crime through my students. Poverty isn't a reason to steal, yes, that is correct however, it contributes to criminal activity. For a person who may not be strong in school, who may not have any skills and who finds it hard to find employment because of these reasons, a "life of crime" many times is the only way they can survive. There are always going to be sickos who do things purely because they enjoy acting the fool but personally, I don't think most people would prefer to be criminals if they had other options. I personally know someone who makes his living illegally. We're not friends, I just know him. He's a nice kid actually. When I asked him why he does what he does, his answer was something to the effect of. "Look at you teach, you went to school, got degrees up the wazoo and you just barely making it. If you miss a couple of paychecks, where will you be? In the street with the rest of the bums. But me, I work way less than you do and make what you make in a couple of months. Why should I work hard and have nothing to show for it?" Depending on your mindset, I can see from where this kid is coming.

Being in the business of education I see where a lot of kids turn to such a life. Vocational programs are cut all over the place. Years ago when a kid left school he or she had a skill where they could go into the work place and find employment. I'm not making excuses for those who don't want to do anything but in many ways, options for these children are limited. Let's say you have a child who is not strong academically, should this child not be able to succeed because he or she can't read well? Of course not but many people, children included have this vision of be rich, be a doctor/lawyer/basketball player. If you aren't any of those things, you're nothing. They've seen their parents work hard and struggle and not advance and they don't want to do the same things. I don't have a solution but I do know this is part of the problem.

 

[Lincsong]

Excellent points. Not every child is going to go to college, or post graduate school. Not every child is going to go to Silicon Valley. That is why we need vocational schools. In this town where I live there are two school districts. One school district has a 13% drop out rate, the other has 3%. Yet, the one with the 13% drop out rate wants a $110 million bond to build a performing arts center!:eusa_doh: Down the street from where I live the Electricians have a training center; 4 years before the student can become an apprentice!:eusa_doh: Talk about craziness, I have several uncles who dropped out of high school in the 1940's who were electricians, no one has to go to school for 4 years to be an electrician.:rage:
When I managed a car rental agency, there were plenty of body shops looking for people and the pay is $15 plus an hour.

 

[carebear]

Twitch is right, it isn't getting worse overall. Which admittedly doesn't do those on the high end of the curve much good.

What does this tell us? That "crime", like so so much else, is not something the Federal government can or should be involved with on any sort of micro level. The particular local problems require local solutions.

Unfortunately, the overall root causes aren't really anything the Feds can address either. At least not without unacceptable levels of intrusiveness in personal behavior and the economy or at least dramatic violations of "PC" thinking.

I would direct folks to the "Freakonomics" chapters on crime, perceptions of crime and crime statistics for some interesting looks at the most likely causes of crime.


Also, without defining your terms you can't accomplish anything. By "crime" I assume most of us are most concerned about personal crime, not "white collar". As the joke goes, Capitalists don't break into your house in the middle of the night and drag you off to the mall.

 

[Rosie]

Thank you. One thing that my mom and I were talking about not long ago was the increasing of requirements for certain jobs. I'm all for hiring the best qualified candidates and all but 20 years ago, police didn't need 60 college credits and they were no worse than the police protecting us now. You didn't need a high school diploma to work at McDonald's and miraculously, fries were still made. Even teachers didn't have to meet the requirements of new educators but somehow, kids still learned. Just as Lincsong brings up the length of education needed by electricians, it just isn't necessary. Sometimes, these requirements are a bit silly and keep an entire group of persons from even considering those careers as options. In particular, I had a little boy in my class this past year. He's a sweet kid and a WHIZ at electronics, he can put things together, take them apart, he also knows more than his fair share of stuff when it comes to marine life, sharks, fish, all of that. This kid can't read very well, it just doesn't click for him. Math he can do but since he can't read, he can only go so far. I worry about this kid, I really do. He's been held back twice because he can't pass tests. He's a great kid but, what will become of him? Should he suffer for the rest of his life because reading doesn't come easy to him? NO, it makes me cry. If there were a vocational program, he could learn much more about electronics graduate and have a successful career as a repariman, ac tech, electrician, etc. But, what will happen to him? Will he grow up, be unable to find a job and then turn to selling drugs? It's a possibility. His entire life can be affected by this basically small thing.

 

[Lincsong]

To me it seems like crime is dropping in the rest of the country and rising in Oakland and San Francisco. When Ron Dellums ran for Mayor of Oakland this spring he sounded like he was running to the right of Jerry Brown. That Oakland needed to get crime under control. Now that's "freakanomics".

 

[Lincsong]

Rosie; maybe the child is dyslexic?[huh]

 

[Dixon Cannon]

I've got to weigh in on this....

How is it a reflection of our society when a Sports Player makes Millions a year but we baulk at paying our teachers educating our children any more than $ 40,000 a year ?

but, you knew that I would!

In my estimation it is quite clear. We as a society must get government out of the education business altogether. It is an abysmal failure! When education is privatized we may well see 'education MVP's' making mega-bucks for their good season of work!... but in the mean time government schools are virtual breeding grounds for delinquent behavior, criminal apprenticeship and gang recruitment. So much time is spent on 'securing the peace' on campuses that there ain't much educatin' goin' on. It is no wonder that kids come of age without any social skills whatsoever - when we have a 'free market' educational system it practically begs of administrator-teacher-child-parent participation in a value-for-value market of knowledge sharing.

But... we've got the education system we asked for (until we decide to change it!)

-dixon cannon

 

[jamespowers]

Can it be our society's lack of proper upbringings?

Back in the day all of our neighbors knew each other names and the kids knew that if the neighbor caught them doing something wrong they could correct it and if not they would inform your parents so you’d get it when you came home.

Most families where I grew up you could count on the Mom being at home now both parents work to make ends meet.

It was also not socially acceptable for a kid to say anything worse than "Darn" but now the Civil Rights people jump in because little 9-year-old Johnny has the Constitutional right to use the "F" word if he likes and there is nothing that can be done about it.

Things like Respect Your Elders have gone out the door.

Drugs especially Meth seems not to help either.

I think you are nailing it . Everyone is looking to government for a solution but the solution begins at home. I was just talking to a counselor at the local high school today. She said that by the time they get children in for counseling the parents have no idea why their children are having problems with behavior. Her response: Well, they just didn't get that way overnight. Obviously you were missing something. :eusa_doh:
They just don't take the time out of their day to sit down with their children and find out how the day went. When they get a note from the school about their child's behavior, they blame the teachers. That begins at home not at school. Manners begins there, tact begins there, self-control begins there etc., etc.
Check out the crime statistics for the worst period of economic plight we ever had---the Great Depression. Were there run away crime waves all over the streets with store windows being broken into for food and other supplies? No. Poverty therefore doesn't necessarily breed crime. That period proves it. What was different?
Well, just about everything. Parents were VERY interested in what their children were doing, who they were doing it with and they might even call or go over to their child's friend's house to talk to the parents. Good luck in getting away with saying you were with so and so because they would just call or go over and make sure of it.
Perform poorly in school? Your parents were going to be all over you like a wet blanket. Poor grades led to less priviledges such as going out alone or with friends. If they had iPods and TVs then you would be lucky to have four bare walls after receiving poor grades.
Lie to a parent? Good luck again. They would know what you did before you had a chance to tell the fib. Then you would get it again. If your parents had a basement you might end up there for a prolonged period of time. My aunt always mentioned the fourlegged belt as well.
End up in jail or in trouble with the law? Man you were really out of luck. Do you think they would come bail you out ASAP? No way. "You got yourself in, you get yourself out." They might check it out behind the scenes to make sure you did what they said you did but you were still in jail. That was scared straight before the TV show existed and it tended to work.
I can go on and on through the list but you get the idea. Parents in those days had no illusion about wanting to be their child's buddy or friend. They were parents. If the child didn't like them for disiplining them they weren't going to die over it. They presented a united front and the children towed the line or ended up getting a correction one way or the other. They could have had ADD, ADHD and ten other disorders but they were going to act like human beings and not like monkeys. I remember being REALLY mad at my parents at times. It never made any difference. In fact, carrying on made it worse. :eusa_doh: You took the punishment---whatever it was and that was it because you deserved it.
I am sure there are good parents out there but there are probably just as many on the other side. We can all make a difference without government lifting one finger if we tend to our own families first. :eusa_clap

Regards,

J

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Kind of off topic, but has to be said. Portland is a beautiful city. I go there about four times a year. I'm sad to hear about the rising crime and vandalism rate.

I also forgot to mention that this past weekend a pipe bomb blew up a downtown mailbox.

 

[Story]

I also forgot to mention that this past weekend a pipe bomb blew up a downtown mailbox.

Dumb (albeit potentially lethal) kid stuff. Teenagers being dumb like this is nothing new.

Police in Vt., N.H. investigating up to 12 bombings in 2 states
By Wilson Ring, Associated Press Writer | August 21, 2006
http://www.boston.com/news/local/ve..._investigating_up_to_12_bombings_in_2_states/

MONTPELIER, Vt. --Police in Vermont and New Hampshire expect to charge four people later this week for their roles in a series of up to a dozen pipe bombings in the two states, police said.

Three homes in the New Hampshire towns of Enfield and Orange were searched late Sunday and early Monday where police seized evidence related to the cases, police said.

Three juveniles and one adult, who have not been publicly identified, will be charged later this week in both states, police said.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Dumb (albeit potentially lethal) kid stuff. Teenagers being dumb like this is nothing new.

The "like this" part is new here in Portland.

 

[Story]

The "like this" part is new here in Portland.

Could be, or could be that you never knew about it. I can remember being a teenager and knowing Beavis-and-Butthead types pulling these same sort of stunts - but they never made the newspapers.

This also touches on the FBI statistics mentioned earlier - since the crime rate was higher in the recent past, why are you feeling it more now? [huh]

Simply because you're more aware of it. Modern media brings us news at lightning speed, so even if the Evil-per-capita ratio remains constant it seems like there's more problems simply because we learn about them faster.

It's like a trick pulled by the Confederate General Nathan Forrest down in Athens , Georgia - he had eight cannon and rolled each of them past the Yankees he was besieging three times, which led the Union commander to believe Forrest had 24 guns.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Could be, or could be that you never knew about it. I can remember being a teenager and knowing Beavis-and-Butthead types pulling these same sort of stunts - but they never made the newspapers.

This also touches on the FBI statistics mentioned earlier - since the crime rate was higher in the recent past, why are you feeling it more now? [huh]

Simply because you're more aware of it.

Not here in Portland. Word gets around just fine without the papers. As for the FBI statistics, as stated earlier, some places are seeing an increase in crime.

With all due respect, I don't see any merit in further debating with you whether or not there is an increase in crime in the city I live. I do appreciate your perspective, though.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Beavis & Butthead

Could be, or could be that you never knew about it. I can remember being a teenager and knowing Beavis-and-Butthead types pulling these same sort of stunts - but they never made the newspapers.

You got me thinking- This cultural reference to Beavis & Butthead- before B & B, we didn't have such popular and accepted examples of idiocy. Do you think such shows (like JackA**, etc) contribute to a culture of disrespect and idiotic stunts? Also, do you think the solution is to say "kids will be kids" and turn a blind eye? [huh]

 

[Matthew Dalton]

You got me thinking- This cultural reference to Beavis & Butthead- before B & B, we didn't have such popular and accepted examples of idiocy. Do you think such shows (like JackA**, etc) contribute to a culture of disrespect and idiotic stunts? Also, do you think the solution is to say "kids will be kids" and turn a blind eye? [huh]

If it was one something like this, I'd say rappers and the whole "Thug-Life" thing has more to do with it. But while I think this is a factor, I don't think things would be that much better if such examples didn't exist.

 

[Spatterdash]

but, you knew that I would!

In my estimation it is quite clear. We as a society must get government out of the education business altogether. It is an abysmal failure! When education is privatized we may well see 'education MVP's' making mega-bucks for their good season of work!... but in the mean time government schools are virtual breeding grounds for delinquent behavior, criminal apprenticeship and gang recruitment. So much time is spent on 'securing the peace' on campuses that there ain't much educatin' goin' on. It is no wonder that kids come of age without any social skills whatsoever - when we have a 'free market' educational system it practically begs of administrator-teacher-child-parent participation in a value-for-value market of knowledge sharing.

But... we've got the education system we asked for (until we decide to change it!)

-dixon cannon

I agree, don't completely trust the government (federal, state or local) to educate our children all on their own. However, privatized education will leave the lower income folks out in the cold, and crime flourishes in poverty. Every child should have a shot at the basics no matter their parent's income.
So no, I don't wanna see pure privatized education. Learning just for the wealthy is not gonna solve anything. Competition may be of some benefit, but overall I think public education can improve in two ways and still reach all children.

1.)Offer a trade school option for students at 10th grade, allowing for high school (11th and 12th grade) for those with intentions toward college.

2.)Allow discipline in the schools again. I don't mean a paddle, that just angers the problem kids, I mean detention, community service and action on parents who show no interest in their child's behaviour.
I think this would work once the trade school option was in place. Otherwise, some kids just get suspended and don't care. They never really cared in the first place. If they have options, they can choose for themselves their direction in life and career.

On the overall issue of crime, I'm a big believer that the government doesn't need to prosecute or criminalize victimless activities, like soft drugs that are less dangerous than alcohol or regulated adult industries.
But that's my Libertarian side showing up, and that philosophy is not total. Like most Americans (despite the caterwauling of pundits on both sides) I consider each issue, not a party line.
Seriously, gang killings over weed or shoot outs with feds over meth transport... stupid. Meth wasn't a big issue until it was made an illegal substance. Before that, it was the occasional trucker using low doses to stay awake, and there was no "meth epidemic".

Seriously, gangs and criminal organizations are not high end cat burglars, they are drawn to the life due to the immense profits to be had in trafficing substances and services that many nations with lower crime rates allow for.
This is the Fedora Lounge, surely some folks see the parallel to Alcohol Prohibition.

"What are you prepared to do?" Sean Connery as Officer Malone, "The Untouchables".

 

[Lincsong]

When I went to junior high in the seventh grade Wood I and Metal I was offered. It was basic hand tools and such. Once those were completed then Wood II and Metal II were offered and we go to use; a lathe, bandsaw, foundry, arc welder. In high school more advanced classes were offered. Now, in the same school district none of that is offered and there is a 13% drop out rate. There was a topica thread about the school district and I participated and the teachers were the most clueless people I have ever encountered.

 

[Twitch]

This topic is based on the premise that there actually has been a dramatic rise in major (violent) crime. Statistics can be viewed in may ways but when the FBI Uniform Crime Report shows a 2.2% reduction in 2004 and a 2.5% increase in 2005 I call that a level rate. If it has dropped 33.4% from 1994-2004 what how the heck can anyone interpret that as an increase?
Violent crime is murder, rape, manslaughter, robbery, aggravated assault. Property crime is burglarly, larceny, theft, vehicle theft. That is down 23.0% in the same 10-year period.

So while everyone has those interesting or shocking crime stories please calm down and put it in perspective. These figures are arrived at by national averages so we can't preclude that certain geographic areas might have had increase in certain crimes.

Go to the FBI website and look at the details since it breaks it down by state, metropolitan area, crimes by type of weapon, race and myriad more ways. You could spend an afternoon there studying.