Rifle Firing Position

[deanglen]

This was such a great thread! Re-reading it was fascinating.


dean

 

[Renault]

A great picture!
I have seen this position referenced in quite a few 19th Century shooting competitions. I doubt it is still taught unless you are shooting black powder cartridge rifle shooting!

That position was known as the "Creedmore" and was used for years in all long range shooting. Especially withe the heavier single shot rifles; Sharps, Borchardts, Rolling blocks, etc. went out of vogue with the higher velocity, smaller calibre rifles around the time of the Great War. My adopted grandad was the Texas state rifle champ in 1921. He never spoke of utilizing this position.

Renault

 

[Renault]

I should probably add that the true Creedmore position was a bit differ t that the soldier pictured. But adaptions had to be made for the circumstance.

If you were right handed, you would lay on your right sideand bend yor legs a the knees a bit. Rest you rifle barrel on the parts of your leg just behind your knees. You would place your left hand just u dee your jaw and place the rifle butt I the cup of your left hand. Your right arm would be out on the ground and bent so you could still reach your rifle's trigger. Generally you would not have wrapped your hand around the wrist of your stock. You would also be utilizing a vernier tang or ladder rear sight. Kinda confusing, but you get the idea.

 

[Stearmen]

Here is the Creedmoor position. The rules stated any position was acceptable as long as no object was used to rest the rifle on. They started at 800 yards, then 900 and finally 1000, with just peep sights. A variation of this position is still used by long range pistol shooters.

 

[Renault]

Thanks Stearman. Position I refered to was the one where you had the tang sight mounted to the heel of the buttplate.

 

[Stearmen]

Thanks Stearman. Position I refered to was the one where you had the tang sight mounted to the heel of the buttplate.

Yes, that position is even worse. I have seen a couple of original Hepburn Sharps with both the Tang And Heel peep sight mounted. I am sure you would have to remove one of the sights in order to shoot. Still, makes for quite the sight, [pun intended!]

 

[Renault]

I wish I had Grandpa Marvin's 1903 rear sight micrometer!!! I suppose it was thrown away with all his letters and photos when he died.

 

[TomS]

*In close* provides a more stable platform, and less fatigue.

 

[deanglen]

Looking at images of contemporary infantry in combat, I notice the way they hold their rifle, up high, close to their face, not slung lower with space between their arms (like we did as kids playing "Combat" using anything that approximated a firearm, like sticks or small pieces of wood.). These are Marines, not infantry, I believe.

dean

 

[Story]

These are Marines, not infantry, I believe.

dean

Sorry, no - they're United States Army soldiers. They're wearing ACU pattern camouflage and the third soldier back looks like he has a 2nd Infantry Division patch on his left shoulder. All four (including the Observer/Controller, fourth dude back) appear to be combat veterans, from the dual-shoulder patches.

Marines have their own very distinctive pattern of camo - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARPAT
and since the Army issues multicam for Afghanistan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MultiCam this photo is either old or in a non-combat zone training environment.

Furthermore, Marines can also be infantry (which is simply a branch within a service).

As for the M4 carbines, they're being carried in the Patrol Position which allows fast transition to the Low Ready Position http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2012/03/shooting-positions-ready-positions.html

Story
OIF, 08-09

 

[WH1]

Sorry, no - they're United States Army soldiers. They're wearing ACU pattern camouflage and the third soldier back looks like he has a 2nd Infantry Division patch on his left shoulder. All four (including the Observer/Controller, fourth dude back) appear to be combat veterans, from the dual-shoulder patches.

Marines have their own very distinctive pattern of camo - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARPAT
and since the Army issues multicam for Afghanistan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MultiCam this photo is either old or in a non-combat zone training environment.

Furthermore, Marines can also be infantry (which is simply a branch within a service).

As for the M4 carbines, they're being carried in the Patrol Position which allows fast transition to the Low Ready Position http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2012/03/shooting-positions-ready-positions.html

Story
OIF, 08-09

Looks like Iraq, they are US Army , Army didn't use the multi-cams until Afghanistan I think around 2009 they began issuing them to front line combat arms units.

As story noted weapons carried in this manner can be put in firing position quicker, in Close Quarters Battle (CQB) winning is measured in seconds as in if you are able to get accurate rounds downrange in 3 seconds and the other guy is only able to do it in 5 seconds, you win. Most of us began using weapons carry systems such as a single point sling which held the weapon tight to the shoulder ensuring quick, accurate mounting of the weapon with a secure, positive cheek weld and relatively easy carry.

 

[deanglen]

Sorry, no - they're United States Army soldiers. They're wearing ACU pattern camouflage and the third soldier back looks like he has a 2nd Infantry Division patch on his left shoulder. All four (including the Observer/Controller, fourth dude back) appear to be combat veterans, from the dual-shoulder patches.

Marines have their own very distinctive pattern of camo - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARPAT
and since the Army issues multicam for Afghanistan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MultiCam this photo is either old or in a non-combat zone training environment.

Furthermore, Marines can also be infantry (which is simply a branch within a service).

As for the M4 carbines, they're being carried in the Patrol Position which allows fast transition to the Low Ready Position http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2012/03/shooting-positions-ready-positions.html

Story
OIF, 08-09

Right you are! My bad.:eusa_doh: here's the photo cutline, which I found at a source other than where I found it. Thanks for correcting that.

"Soldiers from 4th Battalion, 31st Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) out of Fort Drum, N.Y., search fields and reed lines May 14 in Rushdi Mullah, Iraq for three missing U.S. soldiers. The soldiers were believed to be abducted by terrorists after an attack May 12 in Yusufiyah, Iraq."

That low ready position is what I'd expect for patrolling, but the link to the article you posted makes it clear that the "Patrol Position" provides the most comfort for long carrying periods and also quick switching to "Low Ready". Learned something new there. Thanks, Story!


dean

 

[Mark D]

Hmmm. I just found this thread for the first time. I'm sorry that I've overlooked it up until now. I enjoy riflery and am passionate about shooting known-distance and unknown distance with "off-the-rack" iron-sighted rifles.

The old military standard was to shoot to 4 moa out to 500 yards and it wasn't unheard of for men to snipe using iron sights out to 600, 700, or even more yards. Something that your average soldier was expected to achieve during the two World Wars is now, based on my experience as an instructor, achievable by perhaps only 5% of the shooting population. I include in that statement active duty military and police. I'm not faulting our excellent servicemen. There are many valid reasons for the de-emphiasis of marksmanship in the military including job specialization and the doctrine of suppressive fire. I'm merely making an observation that a skill from the golden era is waning and I think that is disappointing. Btw, I do make an exception for the Marine Corps. Those guys are still taught how to shoot.

The below link is to a pair of training films that were used during the Second World War to teach our troops how to achieve that standard. It focuses on the three basic positions that have been discussed over the course of the thread (standing, seated and prone). Even 70 years later it is still as fine a lesson in the fundamentals of marksmanship as you can expect to come across. Enjoy!

http://archive.org/details/Rifle_Marksmanship_with_M1_Rifle_Part_1