Retro-extremists? What are we called?

[Fletch]

I think you mean pggiv-mü.

fmsbwtözäü is what you get AFTER the pggiv-mü (say: pig give mew), with mustard, and beer.

Why Raoul Hausmann put the one before the other, well, that's dAdA for you.

 

[Senator Jack]

The Hobo Stick Sport-Shirt Appreciation Society.

Rolls right off the tongue.

bk

lol I thought we got rid of this guy.

BK, In my will, that shirt goes to you. If there's any opposition from my family, just point them to this post.

Addressing DHermann's correct presumption about my effort to 'legitimize' this subculture (and it can't be denied that, sociologically, that's what it is), I should like point out some of the benefits of said legitimization.

Let's say you're in the culture and looking for a job. You know you look sharp and groomed in a your vintage DB but you're afraid you're automatically going to be deemed a kook. 'What's that get-up?' the interviewer my think, if not outright ask, so you decide to go with a horrible 90s Kenneth Cole you picked up at Goodwill. So you get the job, and you're wondering how long you're going to have to wear it before you can work in your vintage gear. Perhaps it's never. So wouldn't it be better if this subculture could be easily referenced? After a wiki article on it, and maybe a YouTube video, I give it six months before everyone knows what we're about.

Regards,

Jack

 

[Fletch]

It's all in the discourse. What the kook/atavist/fmsbwtözäüsler considers "sharp and well groomed" may well strike the chronotypical as "greasy kid stuff and too many buttons fastened".

It's not so far as we imagine from this...

...to this

They are not even two sides of the same coin. They are more like the same side of two different coins: one (Grant) rare and valuable, but only to those prepared to accept it; the other (Grimley) cruelly devalued, but acceptable anywhere.

 

[skyvue]

Let's say you're in the culture and looking for a job. You know you look sharp and groomed in a your vintage DB but you're afraid you're automatically going to be deemed a kook.

Well, as I've stated above, I'm not sure I'm a full-fledged atavist, but that's certainly an issue I've pondered over, given my preference for vintage clothing seven days a week. I've not yet had to face it, knock on wood.

 

[jamespowers]

Let's say you're in the culture and looking for a job. You know you look sharp and groomed in a your vintage DB but you're afraid you're automatically going to be deemed a kook. 'What's that get-up?' the interviewer my think,

Response: "Its a suit and tie. They sell them at Brooks Brothers. Go have a look."
Every interview I have been to around here, they usually give compliments and say that is the professional look they want customers to see. [huh]

 

[JimWagner]

How about Warpers, short for Time Warpers?

 

[jamespowers]

How about Warpers, short for Time Warpers?

Too close to warped. [huh] I can just see that reference now. :eusa_doh:

 

[BellyTank]

Is the wearing of used clothing, hats and shoes an issue which needs defending, justifying, or explaining?
That's probably one of the things that makes vintage lifestylers seem kOOky.


B
T

 

[LizzieMaine]

Well, it's more a matter of wearing used clothing, which you wash with lye soap in a wringer machine and hang on an outdoor line, while listening to some forgotten 30s dance band on a wooden-cased tube radio, while baking a lard-crusted pie in a stove that was new when Truman was president that might require explanation. The neighbors do begin to wonder. "Whassamatter, yer dryer broke?"

(In other words, it's more than just clothes that we're talking about...)

 

[JimWagner]

Too close to warped. [huh] I can just see that reference now. :eusa_doh:

I do see your point. For the record, I got the idea from this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1042702/Time-Warp-Wives-Meet-women-really-live-past.html

 

[BellyTank]

I get what you mean.
But the wearing of used clothing does seem to creep some people out.
I was thinking of the -wearing- "issue", as just one potential, kooky, negative aspect.
Do these need to be defended/justified/etc.


B
T

 

[jamespowers]

Well, it's more a matter of wearing used clothing, which you wash with lye soap in a wringer machine and hang on an outdoor line, while listening to some forgotten 30s dance band on a wooden-cased tube radio, while baking a lard-crusted pie in a stove that was new when Truman was president that might require explanation. The neighbors do begin to wonder. "Whassamatter, yer dryer broke?"

(In other words, it's more than just clothes that we're talking about...)

Aside from the wringer machine, that sounds a lot like a page from home life here. It is a lifestyle for many---not just clothing, which goes through dry cleaning fluid before it gets worn by me the first time. That stuff will kill anything.

 

[JimWagner]

Could have been worse. Try Milkcows

http://www.milkcow.co.uk/

Seems that the UK has a less serious take on this whole thing.

 

[jamespowers]

I do see your point. For the record, I got the idea from this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1042702/Time-Warp-Wives-Meet-women-really-live-past.html

Ah a great time to be lost in. My mother always said it was a more simple time.

 

[jamespowers]

Could have been worse. Try Milkcows

http://www.milkcow.co.uk/

Seems that the UK has a less serious take on this whole thing.

Looks more rockabilly than vintage. Now that stuff looks retro to me---kind of like astroturf.

 

[reetpleat]

I just want everyone to know that I've digested every post we've had here, and I sincerely thank you for your thoughts.

Though I'm still not one hundred per cent with 'Atavist', simply because of the connotations of 'Primitivism', I can't rule it out on the basis of it being too esoteric. A word gets claimed by a group and it takes on a new meaning; it happens every day. When I was a kid, 'booty' was an archaic term for pirate's treasure, and now it's a derrière. Recently, I was shocked when Mr. Bern told me I should no longer talk about having my trousers 'pegged', the new meaning of which you will not find in your Funk & Wagnall's.

As for the temporal line between an Anachronist and what we do, I think that needs to be defined. Because of the simplicity of the clothing, I think a male can get away with being an Edwardian Atavist (and certainly, we're seeing the resurgence of that style today) but with the feathers and bustles and whatnot, a woman might have a more difficult time of it. There comes a point of total impracticality. A medieval Anachronist, for example, can't live the life every day for he would need cauldrons and a fireplace to cook in, not to mention a horse to get around. True, some may claim that my using a 66 Mustang as a daily driver is impractical, but i can fix the thing when it does break down on the side of the road, which, unfortunately, happens too often. And speaking of autos, is it too impractical for a 20s Atavist to use a period Ford as a daily driver? For local driving, I should think not, but a highway trip might be pushing the boundaries.

So what is the time frame we're talking here? Thoughts, please.

Kind regards,

Jack

Perhaps a true 20 Atavist would choose to live walking distance or a short fliver ride away from work. Would it not be quite modern to travel many miles to work.

Of course, then it begs the question, what is particularly atavist or retro about collecting things from the past and living in the past. Would this not be crazy for a person from the 20s?

I think there is a certain missing element from this discussion that captures the whole motivation. For example, Lizzie lives her life because she has always been there and feels comfortable in it. Forgotten man, perhaps feels he was born in the wrong era and only wishes to feel comfortable with the things that give him pleasure (mere speculation) We all know there are some here who think that the world was a much better place then and have quite conservative views and values. While, on the other hand, those such as the good Senator from New York seem to be an ex punk rocker rejecting the negatives of modern life, like any good ex punk rocker should, for a nostalgic life of sharp suits, swank clubs, and fine drink. (again, speculation) and one that is probably more imaginary pastiche, than any actual reality.

I for one, recognize my kinship with certain members here, but feel I have very little in common with them beyond a love of the era. In fact, I dare say, that other than a respect due all human beings, there are those her I am sure I would love in person, and those here I would have very little patience for.

Is there any room in your word or manifesto for acknowledgment of the fact that many people have very different attitudes, while arriving at a similar place?

 

[reetpleat]

I guess I'll toss in 2 more cents. First of all, I understand why Jack is trying to come up with a label or name, but I'm very leery of it, nonetheless. If you label it, then it's automatically limited.
Jim Kweskin used to call his band the Neo Passe Jazz Band. I like that term.
Or, how about Mid Century Atavist, or Neo Atavist? Also, I'm afraid the term Vintage has already established itself in the vernacular. And I think Retro has taken on the connotation of 50's and 60's Atomic Age, boomerang tables, and tailfins, and such.
I think what Jack is tryng to do (correct me if I'm wrong) is give the "movement" (another awkward feeling term) a certain legitimacy by giving it an identity that people can recognize. There's a lot to be said for and against that. One benefit of this would be to make more people think it's OK, and not weird. And this might, just might, have the more general result of promoting some of the broader social values of civility and class that we like to talk about here.
I think on balance it's a reasonable idea. But I'm still leery.

You bring up an interesting point. Does there have to be a word encompassing all atavists? I mean, if I say that person is retro, many would take that to mean 50s early 60s, vintage would be taken to mean 20s to 40s. Is there any reason to lump in the late 60s 70s and 80s? I do feel a kinship with people who are into the 20s or the 60s mod as in mad men style. And even a little later but pre hippie. But I feel no kinship at all with a 70s or 80s atavist. I am not so sure it is the same thing at all, any more than as Lizzie said, the pre war or civil war guys. For one thing, I am not convinced anyone is capable of being into the 70s or 80s out of true love without a certain element of kitch and irony. Granted, this may be my own bias, but I am not sure I am wrong about that.

 

[reetpleat]

lol I thought we got rid of this guy.

BK, In my will, that shirt goes to you. If there's any opposition from my family, just point them to this post.

Addressing DHermann's correct presumption about my effort to 'legitimize' this subculture (and it can't be denied that, sociologically, that's what it is), I should like point out some of the benefits of said legitimization.

Let's say you're in the culture and looking for a job. You know you look sharp and groomed in a your vintage DB but you're afraid you're automatically going to be deemed a kook. 'What's that get-up?' the interviewer my think, if not outright ask, so you decide to go with a horrible 90s Kenneth Cole you picked up at Goodwill. So you get the job, and you're wondering how long you're going to have to wear it before you can work in your vintage gear. Perhaps it's never. So wouldn't it be better if this subculture could be easily referenced? After a wiki article on it, and maybe a YouTube video, I give it six months before everyone knows what we're about.

Regards,

Jack

Are you hoping for a protected status in employment and housing? if so, better go for atavist. You can claim it is biological.

 

[Senator Jack]

I think there is a certain missing element from this discussion that captures the whole motivation. For example, Lizzie lives her life because she has always been there and feels comfortable in it. Forgotten man, perhaps feels he was born in the wrong era and only wishes to feel comfortable with the things that give him pleasure (mere speculation) We all know there are some here who think that the world was a much better place then and have quite conservative views and values. While, on the other hand, those such as the good Senator from New York seem to be an ex punk rocker rejecting the negatives of modern life, like any good ex punk rocker should, for a nostalgic life of sharp suits, swank clubs, and fine drink. (again, speculation) and one that is probably more imaginary pastiche, than any actual reality.

Is there any room in your word or manifesto for acknowledgment of the fact that many people have very different attitudes, while arriving at a similar place?

I really don't believe we've even scratched the psychological surface here, Reetpleat, so, yes, there are still a great many elements missing from this discussion.

Certainly, you're correct in the presumption of my being a 70s punker, and for years I played in rather noisy pop bands. There were a few punk camps, of course, the mohawked, dayglo followers of GBH, the Exploited and what not, and on the other side you had the mod sounds and style of The Jam, The Buzzcocks, et al. Being that I was already obsessed with 60s culture as a kid, naturally, I gravitated toward the latter.

An interesting note to all this is (and I recall we had a thread on it a few years back) is the high proportion of adults who had been in that, and later, the hardcore scene. That in itself warrants study and questionnaires and perhaps a few years on the psychiatrist couch.

You bring up an interesting point. Does there have to be a word encompassing all atavists? I mean, if I say that person is retro, many would take that to mean 50s early 60s, vintage would be taken to mean 20s to 40s. Is there any reason to lump in the late 60s 70s and 80s? I do feel a kinship with people who are into the 20s or the 60s mod as in mad men style. And even a little later but pre hippie. But I feel no kinship at all with a 70s or 80s atavist. I am not so sure it is the same thing at all, any more than as Lizzie said, the pre war or civil war guys. For one thing, I am not convinced anyone is capable of being into the 70s or 80s out of true love without a certain element of kitch and irony. Granted, this may be my own bias, but I am not sure I am wrong about that.

As noted in one of my previous posts, it should be all encompassing. Just because we may not have an affinity for a certain era, doesn't mean they're not part of the psychological subculture.

Regards,

Jack

 

[JimWagner]

I think that anyone truly trying to live as in the 30's and 40's wouldn't be sitting in front of a computer connected to the internet participating in discussions such as this any more than the Amish would. That group might need a descriptive name.

For everyone else, it's just part time play acting. And that's perfectly ok. Just don't try to make it something it's not.