Retro-extremists? What are we called?

[reetpleat]

The prime example of 'term confusion' is, of course, Skinhead.

Though in origin, the group was apolitical, and in the 70s was composed of both blacks and whites, the term now, to the general public, evinces the complete opposite.

That is not so much term confusion as a cultural shift of those choosing to look like/be skinheads. Granted, the term encompasses many different types, but the one that got noticed was the racist. But it is not a mistake to refer to those racist nazis as skin heads. they are.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Hmmmm....

I was thinking that I'm getting mixed signals regarding whether or not the type of person Senator Jack is trying to find a proper descriptive term for is a state of mind/mindset alone, or a state of mind mixed with acting upon that state of mind. LizzieMaine refers to a feeling of "cultural displacement." I wasn't kidding when I said I feel that way almost all the time, but in terms of the culture that surrounds me where I live now. I felt more at home in a village in England than I do living in southern Ohio!

I suppose that, with the exception of those that self-identify themselves, the only ones that the term could be applied to would be those that are visibly working on applying the culture of the times they identify with to their lives in the now. It can get a bit confusing when you consider that there are likely those who enjoy wearing vintage clothes and using vintage consumer goods that are quite at home in the now and like it here.

So here is what I came up with: the difference between people like LizzieMaine, Senator Jack, et. al. and people like myself or even others who incorporate much more by way of vintage lifestyle into their lives but are quite happy with being in this time is this: If you were to drop LizzieMaine and Senator Jack into their preferred decades they'd like it. They'd feel right at home and be happy to stay, even if the cars aren't air conditioned.

If you were to take someone like myself and drop me into, say, the '40s, I might like it for a while but it wouldn't take long for me to want to get back to my air conditioned car, my computer and Internet access (tools, yes, but I find them invaluable), and I would not have a skill I could apply to the times as computer operations, small computers, and networking don't exist yet. I probably wouldn't even be able to drive a truck despite having some experience in that in this time.

Am I getting close here?

Regards,
Tom

I think that's a pretty fair way of putting it. I actually feel today very much as you would feel in one of these hypothetical time drops -- most of the skills and aptitudes I have or jobs I've done in my life would have been very useful sixty or seventy years ago, and are quite a bit less valuable today. As I said much earlier in the thread, I'm basically an analog person in a digital world.

I've never had an air-conditioned car -- we only have two days out of the year where one might be pleasant, so I can honestly say I wouldn't miss it. I do miss vent windows though.

 

[Forgotten Man]

I tell people when asked about my appearance or fascination about the past that I was born too late and I’m recapturing what I may have had if I was born when I should have been.

Often when the individual is genuinely intrigued, I’ll go into depth about how our society is cheap, and short sighted and haven’t much appreciation for history or for things they own… they always feel they can buy another something or other and they lack the respect to others property or their own. And that at one time in America, people saved money and worked hard for what they owned… and took pride in their jobs and their life and families… and many other angles of life that have been over shadowed by today’s crummy outlook on the world and biased agendas.

For the record, I do what I do just out of the pure love of the past… a rich and intimate passion for the greatest generation… those who suffered much afflictions, a great depression, followed by a World War. It took tough cookies to live during those times, and from many I have spoken to, have all agreed they hold that time in their life as sacred and special.

It goes deeper than the clothes or the objects I own, it’s a way of life, a moral obligation to be better and not to be duped into what the world thinks today, to get back to basics and disconnect from the modern gadgets we use. To find beauty in the simple things that the world have overlooked… not to be in competition with others as to has the cooler things, but to appreciate and build friendships with those who do share a common taste for older things. To find joy in a beautiful old song, dancing with a loved one, spending time with good friends and all looking swell while doing it... and watching doors open and having special experiances happen that on other hand wouldn't if I wasn't a history wearing nerd.

 

[reetpleat]

Hmmmm....

I was thinking that I'm getting mixed signals regarding whether or not the type of person Senator Jack is trying to find a proper descriptive term for is a state of mind/mindset alone, or a state of mind mixed with acting upon that state of mind. LizzieMaine refers to a feeling of "cultural displacement." I wasn't kidding when I said I feel that way almost all the time, but in terms of the culture that surrounds me where I live now. I felt more at home in a village in England than I do living in southern Ohio!

I suppose that, with the exception of those that self-identify themselves, the only ones that the term could be applied to would be those that are visibly working on applying the culture of the times they identify with to their lives in the now. It can get a bit confusing when you consider that there are likely those who enjoy wearing vintage clothes and using vintage consumer goods that are quite at home in the now and like it here.

So here is what I came up with: the difference between people like LizzieMaine, Senator Jack, et. al. and people like myself or even others who incorporate much more by way of vintage lifestyle into their lives but are quite happy with being in this time is this: If you were to drop LizzieMaine and Senator Jack into their preferred decades they'd like it. They'd feel right at home and be happy to stay, even if the cars aren't air conditioned.

If you were to take someone like myself and drop me into, say, the '40s, I might like it for a while but it wouldn't take long for me to want to get back to my air conditioned car, my computer and Internet access (tools, yes, but I find them invaluable), and I would not have a skill I could apply to the times as computer operations, small computers, and networking don't exist yet. I probably wouldn't even be able to drive a truck despite having some experience in that in this time.

Am I getting close here?

Regards,
Tom

Good point. Plenty of people feel out of place in modern culture. i have for much of my life till I made my culture to suit me. But I was always into vintage because it was fun.

As for making a living, are you kidding? You would make a fortune with your knowledge of electronicss and computers!

 

[jamespowers]

I tell people when asked about my appearance or fascination about the past that I was born too late and I’m recapturing what I may have had if I was born when I should have been.

Often when the individual is genuinely intrigued, I’ll go into depth about how our society is cheap, and short sighted and haven’t much appreciation for history or for things they own… they always feel they can buy another something or other and they lack the respect to others property or their own. And that at one time in America, people saved money and worked hard for what they owned… and took pride in their jobs and their life and families… and many other angles of life that have been over shadowed by today’s crummy outlook on the world and biased agendas.

For the record, I do what I do just out of the pure love of the past… a rich and intimate passion for the greatest generation… those who suffered much afflictions, a great depression, followed by a World War. It took tough cookies to live during those times, and from many I have spoken to, have all agreed they hold that time in their life as sacred and special.

It goes deeper than the clothes or the objects I own, it’s a way of life, a moral obligation to be better and not to be duped into what the world thinks today, to get back to basics and disconnect from the modern gadgets we use. To find beauty in the simple things that the world have overlooked… not to be in competition with others as to has the cooler things, but to appreciate and build friendships with those who do share a common taste for older things. To find joy in a beautiful old song, dancing with a loved one, spending time with good friends and all looking swell while doing it... and watching doors open and having special experiances happen that on other hand wouldn't if I wasn't a history wearing nerd.

Well said. :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[JimWagner]

I certainly am not an Atavist and have no skin in the name eventually picked. But watching the naming process here is interesting and exposes some people and thought processes to me that I haven't really come into contact with myself. I certainly don't feel unkindly towards those wrestling with this. In fact, I can feel a certain empathy.

When I went into the Navy in 1965 I'd never heard of hippies. Not sure there really were any at that time. I spent most of the next 4 years either overseas or at isolated bases and out of contact. When I got out and went home it wasn't there any more. A lot of societal and cultural changes happened that I didn't get to see happen gradually or adapt to. In may respects the country changed and I didn't. I felt like a visiting alien. And was treated as such. And I rejected what I saw.

I imagine that feeling of displacement is what I see Lizzy and others talk about here. It's a matter of degree.

Even though I've adapted in many (most) ways, at least outwardly, internally I'm still pretty much the guy I was pre-1965. My manners are old Southern small town. My views of marriage and family reflect an earlier time, e.g. family and children first, divorce almost unthinkable. There are elements of my wardrobe that have never changed from that time. And I am influenced strongly by way I was brought up, a product of the 50's and early 60's. But I don't consciously live as if it is some time pre 1965. I'm just me. Still a stranger in a strange land.

It's all about how one deals with that feeling of displacement I guess. For me it's keeping the (to me) good things from that time, ignoring the bad things about today to the extent possible, and getting on with living in the present.

But that feeling of displacement has never really gone away and when people my age talk about the post 1965 sixties with fondness it comes to the forefront all over again. And I reject it all over again.

It just doesn't dominate my day to day life.

 

[Foofoogal]

I tell people when asked about my appearance or fascination about the past that I was born too late and I’m recapturing what I may have had if I was born when I should have been.

Often when the individual is genuinely intrigued, I’ll go into depth about how our society is cheap, and short sighted and haven’t much appreciation for history or for things they own… they always feel they can buy another something or other and they lack the respect to others property or their own. And that at one time in America, people saved money and worked hard for what they owned… and took pride in their jobs and their life and families… and many other angles of life that have been over shadowed by today’s crummy outlook on the world and biased agendas.

For the record, I do what I do just out of the pure love of the past… a rich and intimate passion for the greatest generation… those who suffered much afflictions, a great depression, followed by a World War. It took tough cookies to live during those times, and from many I have spoken to, have all agreed they hold that time in their life as sacred and special.

It goes deeper than the clothes or the objects I own, it’s a way of life, a moral obligation to be better and not to be duped into what the world thinks today, to get back to basics and disconnect from the modern gadgets we use. To find beauty in the simple things that the world have overlooked… not to be in competition with others as to has the cooler things, but to appreciate and build friendships with those who do share a common taste for older things. To find joy in a beautiful old song, dancing with a loved one, spending time with good friends and all looking swell while doing it... and watching doors open and having special experiances happen that on other hand wouldn't if I wasn't a history wearing nerd.
__________________
The HOOVER Cleaner, It Beats... As It Sweeps... As It Cleans!

you stated it perfectly. :eusa_clap
progress is not always progress..

 

[Viola]

Ironically though, living the atavist lifestyle in most cases, requires a fair amount of money spent on artifacts and acoutrement, increasingly expensive at that. So, it can be said that an ativist is partly defined by the acquisition of these artifacts. How much of an ativist is an ativist who just wishes to possess these things and live this way? Consumption of them is implicit too, as, while my suits now sit in the closet and see little use, the daily drivers, wearers, users, will surely consume and wear out these artifacts, well made though they are.

I think I have a problem with the underpinning argument that it has to cost a lot of money. I think it certainly can, and I don't disrespect anybody who buys their way to it, but I do not think it has to.

I myself find it far more frugal to be vintage than modern? Buy used books instead of video games. Snuggle up under blankets instead of turning up the heat. Walk to work. Have a vegetable garden. Bake and cook instead of eating out. Buy vintage clothes or learn to sew. Buy used furniture instead of stuff from Ikea that lasts three years and dies and needs to be bought again.

I don't think being an atavist requires money; if anything it may just require not caring about people raising eyebrows at "how you can live that way."

I'm interested to see if I'm an outlier in this; do other people also think vintage equals spendy?

 

[jamespowers]

I certainly am not an Atavist and have no skin in the name eventually picked. But watching the naming process here is interesting and exposes some people and thought processes to me that I haven't really come into contact with myself. I certainly don't feel unkindly towards those wrestling with this. In fact, I can feel a certain empathy.

When I went into the Navy in 1965 I'd never heard of hippies. Not sure there really were any at that time. I spent most of the next 4 years either overseas or at isolated bases and out of contact. When I got out and went home it wasn't there any more. A lot of societal and cultural changes happened that I didn't get to see happen gradually or adapt to. In may respects the country changed and I didn't. I felt like a visiting alien. And was treated as such. And I rejected what I saw.

I imagine that feeling of displacement is what I see Lizzy and others talk about here. It's a matter of degree.

Even though I've adapted in many (most) ways, at least outwardly, internally I'm still pretty much the guy I was pre-1965. My manners are old Southern small town. My views of marriage and family reflect an earlier time, e.g. family and children first, divorce almost unthinkable. There are elements of my wardrobe that have never changed from that time. And I am influenced strongly by way I was brought up, a product of the 50's and early 60's. But I don't consciously live as if it is some time pre 1965. I'm just me. Still a stranger in a strange land.

It's all about how one deals with that feeling of displacement I guess. For me it's keeping the (to me) good things from that time, ignoring the bad things about today to the extent possible, and getting on with living in the present.

But that feeling of displacement has never really gone away and when people my age talk about the post 1965 sixties with fondness it comes to the forefront all over again. And I reject it all over again.

It just doesn't dominate my day to day life.

I can see that you are actually definitely in the game. You have the same feelings that I do just not quite as strongly---to the point of rejecting a whole lot more from day to day. perhaps it is because I was raised by parents who were older than most of my friend's parents. My father was nearly 40 when I was born and a veteran of Korea. He was my hero and a good part of who I am.
You may not live a specific vintage lifestyle but vintage is not limited to a lifestyle it is in the blood, manners, morals and the like. It is just us. [huh]

 

[Foofoogal]

perhaps it is because I was raised by parents who were older than most of my friend's parents.

I think this has a lot to do with it. I had depression era parents. Not grandparents. They passed in 1984 and 1987.
I am in my early 50s.
I truly think my mother would drop dead in 10 minutes if she was to come back right now. Seriously.

 

[jamespowers]

I think I have a problem with the underpinning argument that it has to cost a lot of money. I think it certainly can, and I don't disrespect anybody who buys their way to it, but I do not think it has to.

I myself find it far more frugal to be vintage than modern? Buy used books instead of video games. Snuggle up under blankets instead of turning up the heat. Walk to work. Have a vegetable garden. Bake and cook instead of eating out. Buy vintage clothes or learn to sew. Buy used furniture instead of stuff from Ikea that lasts three years and dies and needs to be bought again.

I don't think being an atavist requires money; if anything it may just require not caring about people raising eyebrows at "how you can live that way."

I'm interested to see if I'm an outlier in this; do other people also think vintage equals spendy?

No! Not at all! In fact, some call us cheap for sure.
Going through your list of niceities , all of them are likely better for your health in the long run. Eating home made, home grown foods not only taste better 90% of the time, they are better for you than processed foods and all the salt in eat out foods.
In some sense we are truly conservationists by making do with what we can find and not wasting that which we can lay our hands on. If it isn't brokje we don't fix it. Remodeling for remodelings sake is ridiculous to many of us and even worse it destroys the original character of mid century and before style. Painting woodwork or carpeting over hardwood floors becomes ridiculous to us when what is there is just fine.
I would change blankets to sitting around the fireplace for me though.
Spendy is for trendy and modern.

 

[Edward]

I had never thought of that until you brought it up -- but perhaps for women it's a way of reclaiming an identity that's been widely vilified in modern culture. If you mention "vintage-era women" in most circles today, the images you get are precisely the sort of cartoony June Cleaver myths that the media -- and, shamefully, some here at the Lounge, even -- used as a cudgel to beat the Time Warp Wives.

I suspect some of the gals who go atavist do so, either consciously or subconsciously, as a way of reclaiming that image and saying to the world "You know what? Not all women of the Era were oppressed, cossetted, tranquilized little trophies stuck away on a middle-class shelf somewhere just pining away to be rescued by Betty Friedan. And if you think you can condescend to me, you'll feel my skillet upside your head."

This makes perfect sense to me... Something close in what I was feeling in my reaction to the Stepford-types in the Mail article, but failed to articulate.

The prime example of 'term confusion' is, of course, Skinhead.

Though in origin, the group was apolitical, and in the 70s was composed of both blacks and whites, the term now, to the general public, evinces the complete opposite.

It is interesting how that evolved.... my only awareness of skinheads, it not being a subculture that touched Northern Ireland to any degree, was the Eighties stereotype of the Far Right / Nazi thug image... Interestingly, largely due to the media image of many young men, especially white celebrities like David Beckham, the shaved head look is now a touch more mainstream than it used to be and only rarely attracts that sort of stereotype now. It's an issue that I'm acutely aware of, as I'm a baldie myself.... I shave for no reason other than that I balded prematurely and I elected to lose it all rather than have the old 'egg in the nest' look. Only once has it been a potential issue: a far right thug group congregated locally one Saturday morning a few years ago to oppose a march connected to immigrants in the area. I happened to be headed out to the tube station to pick up a friend, only realised this was gonig on opposite my place when I left - looked down and I was in jeans, and a Harrington - I could have blended in.... For the most part, though, I just get written off nowadays as 'some bald guy' - ties in with the eccentricity and the assumption I'm at least ten years older than I really am, which I get a lot.

I've felt alienated from the mainstream since I was fourteen years old, which has led m down a number of subculture paths - metal, punk, vintage..... increasingly, being religious involves a fair degree of alienation from the mainstream over here, too.... not sure whether and how that factors in here, though.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think I have a problem with the underpinning argument that it has to cost a lot of money. I think it certainly can, and I don't disrespect anybody who buys their way to it, but I do not think it has to.

I myself find it far more frugal to be vintage than modern? Buy used books instead of video games. Snuggle up under blankets instead of turning up the heat. Walk to work. Have a vegetable garden. Bake and cook instead of eating out. Buy vintage clothes or learn to sew. Buy used furniture instead of stuff from Ikea that lasts three years and dies and needs to be bought again.

I don't think being an atavist requires money; if anything it may just require not caring about people raising eyebrows at "how you can live that way."

I'm interested to see if I'm an outlier in this; do other people also think vintage equals spendy?

I think you're right on the button. When people ask me "how I can live that way," I say "Very well, thanks."

Now, I'd love to buy that '39 Plymouth I've always had my eye on, but I'm realistic enough to know I'll never be able to afford it. But I can drag a vintage bike home from the dump, restore it, and ride that every day -- and have the satisfaction of knowing I didn't have to pay "collector prices" for it.

Short answer to it all is, atavism isn't about what you own. It's about your entire worldview.

 

[John in Covina]

I line dry my clothes almost exclusively, do I get points for that?

 

[jamespowers]

I think this has a lot to do with it. I had depression era parents. Not grandparents. They passed in 1984 and 1987.
I am in my early 50s.
I truly think my mother would drop dead in 10 minutes if she was to come back right now. Seriously.

lol lol lol lol My mother was less than enthused by a lot of what was happening around her as well. My father would have been pretty mad about how far some things have went.
My parents lived throught he Depression as well. Talk about putting cardboard in your shoes because they were worn through and the neighbor having to resort to consuming the family dog or starve were very real instances. Wasting food, money or anything else as not an option.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I line dry my clothes almost exclusively, do I get points for that?

Is there any other way??

 

[jamespowers]

I line dry my clothes almost exclusively, do I get points for that?

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap I use my grandmother's Maytag dryer from 1959 but have at it.
Its the one on the right of the photo:

 

[John in Covina]

I use the dryer if i need something washed and dried ASAP or to get a load of lint off some very lint magnetic clothes.

 

[jamespowers]

I use the dryer if i need something washed and dried ASAP or to get a load of lint off some very lint magnetic clothes.

Dryers are very good for that. Mine was free so what else could I want?

 

[reetpleat]

I tell people when asked about my appearance or fascination about the past that I was born too late and I’m recapturing what I may have had if I was born when I should have been.

Often when the individual is genuinely intrigued, I’ll go into depth about how our society is cheap, and short sighted and haven’t much appreciation for history or for things they own… they always feel they can buy another something or other and they lack the respect to others property or their own. And that at one time in America, people saved money and worked hard for what they owned… and took pride in their jobs and their life and families… and many other angles of life that have been over shadowed by today’s crummy outlook on the world and biased agendas.

For the record, I do what I do just out of the pure love of the past… a rich and intimate passion for the greatest generation… those who suffered much afflictions, a great depression, followed by a World War. It took tough cookies to live during those times, and from many I have spoken to, have all agreed they hold that time in their life as sacred and special.

It goes deeper than the clothes or the objects I own, it’s a way of life, a moral obligation to be better and not to be duped into what the world thinks today, to get back to basics and disconnect from the modern gadgets we use. To find beauty in the simple things that the world have overlooked… not to be in competition with others as to has the cooler things, but to appreciate and build friendships with those who do share a common taste for older things. To find joy in a beautiful old song, dancing with a loved one, spending time with good friends and all looking swell while doing it... and watching doors open and having special experiances happen that on other hand wouldn't if I wasn't a history wearing nerd.

With all due respect, you may have a somewhat romanticized concept of the past. Of course, you know life was not always easy. But there were no shortage of people that considered the times immoral, vulgar, cheap, etc. many longed for the good old days of the 1800s, when life was simple, good, better etc.

Buying "on time" and living beyond your means was pretty well invented in the golden era. Disposable culture, advertising, malls etc had their roots in this time.

Not to mention how hard it would be to live a life that was true to yourself as opposed to going along with the herd. good luck getting a job dressed in turn of the century clothes in New York in 1940.

I wonder how many atavists would truly be happier in the real past, as opposed to being happy living in their self created world of 2010.