Retro-extremists? What are we called?

[Fletch]

In my experience using a word of phrase that most accurately describes what a person means is always better than using a word or phrase that somewhat describes what they mean.

For example using a word that can describe a term in biological evolution to describe a sociological phenomena is very misleading and causes a great deal of confusion; except to the one using the word or phrase.

Bear in mind, though, that entire bodies of sociological, philosophical, and political literature are based on highly specific, often unexplained, redefinitions of commonly understood words.

It's even been argued that such semantic elitism (aka bad writing) is vital to expressing any idea that is not inevitably going to get lost in mainstream, conventional assumptions.

The premise is that anything easily understood is easily stereotyped, and I find that hard to refute.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I have always suspected that ex-punkers possess a certain quiet privilege in the post-generationalist discourse - second only to "lifestyle vintage" individuals like Lizzie and Joeri. (Why the latter are almost invariably female is also worth exploring.)

I had never thought of that until you brought it up -- but perhaps for women it's a way of reclaiming an identity that's been widely vilified in modern culture. If you mention "vintage-era women" in most circles today, the images you get are precisely the sort of cartoony June Cleaver myths that the media -- and, shamefully, some here at the Lounge, even -- used as a cudgel to beat the Time Warp Wives.

I suspect some of the gals who go atavist do so, either consciously or subconsciously, as a way of reclaiming that image and saying to the world "You know what? Not all women of the Era were oppressed, cossetted, tranquilized little trophies stuck away on a middle-class shelf somewhere just pining away to be rescued by Betty Friedan. And if you think you can condescend to me, you'll feel my skillet upside your head."

 

[Carlisle Blues]

There is no cure for stereotyped thinking.

I agree ........A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Or someone dressed from another era would still be out of time no matter what they call it. Yet there is an exact term that can be used here.

 

[Senator Jack]

I don't think that makes it any better. There is no cure for stereotyped thinking. Like the job interview situation wouldn't go:

" I noticed you prefer your hair in a rather unsual style"
"Yeah man! I am a ROCKABILLY!"
"Ok, that explains all. You get the job"

???

" I noticed you fancy a detective outfit or something like that?"
"No I am an ATAVIST"
"Ok. You get the job."

Wow, in a completely antipodal manner, you've exemplified my case for creating the label. Though if I were the applicant in these scenarios, I'd put it more like this, and expect the latter response:

" I noticed you prefer your hair in a rather unsual style"
"Yeah, it's a rockabilly thing. I like that kind of stuff."
"Oh, yeah, I've heard of them. So anyway, about your qualifications..."

and, by extension,

" I noticed you fancy a detective outfit or something like that?"
"Well, I'm an atavist actually. You know, one of those guys who likes vintage culture.'
"Oh, like that show on A & E. My wife watches that. So let's talk about your qualifications.'

Ta-da!

Regards,

Jack

 

[Fletch]

[...]perhaps for women it's a way of reclaiming an identity that's been widely vilified in modern culture. If you mention "vintage-era women" in most circles today, the images you get are precisely the sort of cartoony June Cleaver myths that the media -- and, shamefully, some here at the Lounge, even -- used as a cudgel to beat the Time Warp Wives.

I suspect some of the gals who go atavist do so, either consciously or subconsciously, as a way of reclaiming that image and saying to the world "You know what? Not all women of the Era were oppressed, cossetted, tranquilized little trophies stuck away on a middle-class shelf somewhere just pining away to be rescued by Betty Friedan. And if you think you can condescend to me, you'll feel my skillet upside your head."

Too bad your image is so easily misinterpreted - if you were content to be more obvious about your transgressiveness, you might be a force to be reckoned with in the world of ideas.

As it is, the fact of our post-Era cultural amnesia, and the aftermath of it, seems to matter to a lot more people than trying to reclaim whatever it is we forgot.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Bear in mind, though, that entire bodies of sociological, philosophical, and political literature are based on highly specific, often unexplained, redefinitions of commonly understood words.

It's even been argued that such semantic elitism (aka bad writing) is vital to expressing any idea that is not inevitably going to get lost in mainstream, conventional assumptions.

The premise is that anything easily understood is easily stereotyped, and I find that hard to refute.

I could not agree more...........but that is not what is being discussed. Create a new word if you will, use irony, use metaphor but do not use an apple to describe an orange.

As far as conventional assumptions this forum(see previous posts in this thread) are alive and well. Whatever term is chosen will not change that. However, because being an anachronism is widely viewed as weird, strange or extraordinary why choose an equally strange and quite frankly inaccurate term to add to the confusion of those who are have already stereotyped the person?

Fletch it is like wearing a sign that says>>>>

 

[Senator Jack]

The prime example of 'term confusion' is, of course, Skinhead.

Though in origin, the group was apolitical, and in the 70s was composed of both blacks and whites, the term now, to the general public, evinces the complete opposite.

 

[John in Covina]

It maybe that there needs to be a general term for the concept
AND specific terms for levels of "affliction"
OR for specific areas of concentration.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

The prime example of 'term confusion' is, of course, Skinhead.

Though in origin, the group was apolitical, and in the 70s was composed of both blacks and whites, the term now, to the general public, evinces the complete opposite.

That is why accuracy should be a consideration.

Don't forget the "Fordham Baldies" The Fordham Baldies were reputed to shave the heads, and other body parts, of those they caught. This was found to be a nice touch in the Wanderers movie, but in reality, the Fordham Baldies were named for the Bald Eagle and had the Duck's Ass or "D.A." hairstyle made famous by Tony Curtis.

 

[John in Covina]

The prime example of 'term confusion' is, of course, Skinhead.

Though in origin, the group was apolitical, and in the 70s was composed of both blacks and whites, the term now, to the general public, evinces the complete opposite.

In the past (80's) most skinheads I spoke to were more like anarchists and like some punks waiting for the collapse of society. Now it seems to be the exclusive area of "White Power" groups and Neo-nazis.

While things evolve sometimes genres are co-opted. Out this way the prevelance of thug, gangsta or gang culture and "urban" music has made for a lot of cross over of looks and such to music, MTV and then fashion. Thru MTV the desire to emulate is all across the US and the globe so we see it in middle America neighborhoods that bear no resemblence to the gang areas in Southern California.

All sorts of things move thru our culture as fads and fashions. It's like the wedge of lemon or lime stuffed into your bottle of beer, it has no relationship to why they did it in Mexico, but people think it's cool and some how "authentic" but it's lost all of it's original meaning. The water in Mexico was well -bad. You'd get sick, bottled beers on ice could get you ill if you got the ice water on the area you drank from so the lemon or lime was sgueezed and wiped in the bottle opening as an anti bacterial "purel" for bottles. Years ago on spring break vacation, the Bradster thought it was cool and he did it at home and then everyone else thought it was cool and so it goes.

 

[jamespowers]

I had never thought of that until you brought it up -- but perhaps for women it's a way of reclaiming an identity that's been widely vilified in modern culture. If you mention "vintage-era women" in most circles today, the images you get are precisely the sort of cartoony June Cleaver myths that the media -- and, shamefully, some here at the Lounge, even -- used as a cudgel to beat the Time Warp Wives.

I suspect some of the gals who go atavist do so, either consciously or subconsciously, as a way of reclaiming that image and saying to the world "You know what? Not all women of the Era were oppressed, cossetted, tranquilized little trophies stuck away on a middle-class shelf somewhere just pining away to be rescued by Betty Friedan. And if you think you can condescend to me, you'll feel my skillet upside your head."

Exactly! Rosie the Riveter wasn't exactly a pushover and help win the war. I think women who were as you describe were very few in number and the concept of them was likely invented by women like the one you mentioned to their own ends. If everyone would remember their grandmothers who lived through that era and then ask themselves if they were helpless like portrayed by the sterotype, then they would see reality.

 

[Feraud]

In the past (80's) most skinheads I spoke to were more like anarchists and like some punks waiting for the collapse of society. Now it seems to be the exclusive area of "White Power" groups and Neo-nazis.

That wasn't the case when I was a skinhead in the 80s.
All my friends were into music and skateboarding. We didn't care about the neo-nazi, white power, right wing nonsense.

I still fail to see why creating a label is a good thing.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I still fail to see why creating a label is a good thing.

Because it will thwart individualism and promote conformity....:eusa_doh:

 

[jamespowers]

Could you describe or provide examples of the prevalence of these people?
Generally, people I know have computers to do work or gather information, or make purchases more easily than they can in traditional stores. Only a few take an interest in them for their own sake. Generally they identify as "geek subculture".

Lizzie has already gone over this territory but put simply: the computer or whatever it may be is simply a tool to me. I can use it to shop as I would have in person, communicate as I would have by phone or for work. It is all a means to an end and that is it. I spend very little time on the computer at home---if any at all. I have to spend time on it at work.
I don't use the computer to watch TV, listen to music, or go to places like Facebook, myspace or other people networking things(aside from this place).
You can use the computer to make purchases or gather information. That is a means to an end. Getting lost in the computer is something else. I try to keep my computer use to a minimum. The whole interface kind of bothers me. The keybord feels like a brick, the screen is not exactly reality inspiring and the sounds do not equal that of specifically designed instruments---there is a loss of warmth of sound. The same reason that records are still being made right along with CDs. There is still a demand.

 

[jamespowers]

Because it will thwart individualism and promote conformity....:eusa_doh:

You mean like other words like dancer, hobbyist and drinker? Those terms all have a wide range of meanings within their groups. Does a ballet dancer have to conform to a square dancer's standards?
Think of whatever term we use as a generalization with modifiers used in from of it just the same way those words are used. Say a 20s-40s Atavist or a Golden Era Atavist.

 

[jamespowers]

I'd rather not, thank you very much!*yucky* Most of what is there is in exceedingly poor taste, I don't care what era you're from.

Now there is the rub. Those magazines must be selling to someone or they could not be continually produced. A good section of the population must think those are just wonderful to read. The fact that they have a following means that modern culture accepts them.

 

[John in Covina]

We didn't care about the neo-nazi, white power, right wing nonsense.

In the 80's neither did the ones I talked to...
BTW Nazism is not right wing - National "Socialism" is left wing facists.

 

[Lokar]

In the 80's neither did the ones I talked to...
BTW Nazism is not right wing - National "Socialism" is left wing facists.

Nazism is socialism in the way that the Democratic Republic of the Congo is a shining example of democracy - in name only. Nazism is extremely far right politically. That's not an opinion, it's fact.

 

[Feraud]

In the 80's neither did the ones I talked to...
BTW Nazism is not right wing - National "Socialism" is left wing facists.

Edit - Yes I see your earlier distinction between skinhead anarchists and other white power fans.

I never used the word Nazi. I said Neo-Nazi and never said that was Right Wing. I stated the different forms of stupidity that flew under similar banners. Being a Conservative Right Wing Skinhead was/is one of them.

I'll go you one better. Rather than using examples of "people I talked to" I can tell you how it was from being there.

Let's not derail this topic in semantics.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Lizzie has already gone over this territory but put simply: the computer or whatever it may be is simply a tool to me. I can use it to shop as I would have in person, communicate as I would have by phone or for work. It is all a means to an end and that is it. I spend very little time on the computer at home---if any at all. I have to spend time on it at work.
I don't use the computer to watch TV, listen to music, or go to places like Facebook, myspace or other people networking things(aside from this place).
You can use the computer to make purchases or gather information. That is a means to an end. Getting lost in the computer is something else.

Exactly. It's a tool with a specific purpose, like a telephone or a typewriter. It's not a way of life.