resizing vintage

[Golden]

I have been reading of the value of "old" felt in vintage hats vs. the felt available today.

Is taking a vintage Borsalino or Whippet from a 7 3/8 to a 7 1/2 doable?
(not by stretching it)
I know hatters will deconstruct and re-block a hat to change sizes.
Obviously a new liner would be in order, and this would essentially change it from a vintage..
Don't know if you could use the original ribbon, but if you could find a match, wouldn't the value of the vintage felt felt justify it?

Or is this sacrilege?

ty


-joshuah

 

[Alive'n'Amplified]

If it's of high value to you, then it would absolutely justify it. You could generally stretch one size up without disturbing the sweatband, depending on the condition. This will keep all elements of the hat original, except for the size of course. Otherwise, if you go the re-block route, then you'll need a new sweatband and a new ribbon. The liner can be reused.


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[RJR]

Up one size is generally doable via stretching.

 

[Atterbury Dodd]

It's sacrilege lol. But it's yours and you should do what you want with it.

 

[scotrace]

The bigger noggin hole will have to come from somewhere, either the brim or crown. So if you have a whippet, and you take it up a size or two, you know longer have a whippet's dimensions. So, no longer a whippet.

 

[gtdean48]

Send it to a hatter to reblock just a size up. I have 2 vintage Stetson that are 7 1/2 LO & I am a good 7 5/8 LO.
Anything more & you'll loose brim width or crown height....

 

[John Galt]

This comes up from time to time. I agree with most of what has been said here. Stretching one to two sizes can generally be done safely. I do not see this as a sacrilege at all. What good is a hat that does not fit? Also, there are loads of vintage hat stretchers out there. Men who wore hats obviously owned them and used them. It is a good idea to use care or have someone with experience do this though, or you may end up tearing the sweat or leaving a ring on the crown.

 

[fedoracentric]

It's sacrilege lol. But it's yours and you should do what you want with it.

Exactly!

So, here is the situation....

A vintage fedora can sometimes be tugged ONE size with a stretcher. But more than one size is not often doable.

Further, a vintage hat may have condition issues that can't even be seen. For instance, a stretch of even one size may pop degraded stitches or tear a leather sweatband that doesn't look like it has the onset of dryrot, but does.

Or you can take the hat to a hat maker and have him rip out the sweatband and properly upsize the hat.

BUT....

If you have a vintage hat with all the proper markings on the sweatband, but you have a hat maker rip that sweatband out to upsize it, well, the FACT is you no longer have a vintage hat. You have a hat, but since you've torn it all apart it is no longer a collectible and will be worth many times less.

For instance, if you have a proper 7-3/8 Stetson Whippet it will easily reach upwards to $300 on ebay. But if you have a Whippet that has had the sweat replaced, it will not reach that price because it has been ruined as a collectible.

So, your consideration is this:

Do you feel a hat is just a hat and you want the looks and don't care about what it is worth as a piece of history? Then tear it apart and do what you want with it.

On the other hand, if you care that a vintage hat remains in its vintage condition, you will avoid destroying the history of the piece and leave it as is.

So, there are the issues. Now you decide.

 

[RBH]

One thing that cam happen when you pull a hat onto a bigger block is the brim could pull apart from the crown.

 

[mayserwegener]

I would say a good number of vintage hats were tweaked at the time of original sale. I think one size is usual doable with vintage hats but condition (sweatband, ribbon, felt) is a factor. I have found that many old stiff felts were conformed (for example an oval turned my more round) and can be especially problematic.

 

[Joao Encarnado]

I would say a good number of vintage hats were tweaked at the time of original sale. I think one size is usual doable with vintage hats but condition (sweatband, ribbon, felt) is a factor. I have found that many old stiff felts were conformed (for example an oval turned my more round) and can be especially problematic.

At that time they were not vintage and were available at large quantities. Not all survived to this day, so it is to the owner what to do with it.

 

[TheDane]

You shouldn't mind, if you pop some stitches, stretching a hat with reeded sweatband. If you stretch such a hat one or more sizes, the sweatband should be replaced to one of the right length - so popping stitches will only make the task easier

 

[mayserwegener]

At that time they were not vintage and were available at large quantities. Not all survived to this day, so it is to the owner what to do with it.

My point is a good number of hats were altered back in the day. Here is an example (the shop actually changed the size on the label one size up).

See some stitches removed and knot retied.

Looks fine.

 

[Joao Encarnado]

My point is a good number of hats were altered back in the day. Here is an example (the shop actually changed the size on the label one size up).

It's possible but by then resizing a new hat was like resizing a new hat today: don't have historical/collectible meaning.
Resizing a vintage hat today may reduce it's "collectible" value, it all depends on what the owner do to it, I have the same opinion as fedoracentric and also add the trimming western's brim.

 

[mayserwegener]

I wouldn't shy away from buying the hat I posted above because it was tweaked a size. If it wasn't done properly and caused visible distortion / damage I could see the point. Cutting a brim down is a totally different situation IMO. Again almost every old stiff felt I have encountered has been conformed in some way.

 

[John Galt]

My point is a good number of hats were altered back in the day.

This is indisputable. Some famous and prolific shops, like the venerable Pantke-Harpke in Milwaukee specialized in renovations, customizations, and making old hats relevant.

A wide-brim 1930's Whippet with a brim cut down there in 1962 is no less historically relevant for the trimming. It is actually more so to my mind - but still probably less collectible to those collectors who want an iconic hat.

This is an extreme, but very much real life example. I bought the hat from a well-known collector's estate, held it for a while, and ultimately traded it to a different collector for another hard to find vintage hat (Knox Vagabond). We all recognized that it was a piece of history despite the alteration, and maybe even more so because of it.

I am sure all of us here have an appreciation for history regardless of where we come down on this issue.

I personally find presumptuousness & pastoralism more irritating than the renovation of (most) vintage hats. In my experience, most such renovations are preservative in nature.

Although I strive to preserve the history of every vintage hat I may renovate by using vintage materials, including (hard to find) period ribbon & (expensive), vintage methods & tools, and by clipping & saving the identifying portions of rotten sweatbands under the new ones, etc., I also recognize that hats are both uniquely utilitarian and highly personal possessions.

Who am I to tell another man what he should do with his hat, and who should presume to tell me what I should do with mine? Or, as I recently explained to my young son: "You don't mess with a man's hat."

 

[fedoracentric]

While I generally agree with your points (your hat, do what you want, alterations are not pure evil, etc.), I cannot agree at all with this...

...most such renovations are preservative in nature.

This is not the least bit true. "Preserve" essentially means to keep something in its most original shape. Tearing out and throwing away a hat's liner that has historic and descriptive value and eliminating a leather sweatband that has maker's marks as well as historic significance and up sizing that hat to make it usable for a particular person is NOT in any way shape or form "preservative in nature." In fact, it is quite destructive.

It may be preserving hat wearing in a more broad, general sense, but it most certainly is not "preserving" the historical value of the individual hat. In fact it is completely destroying that value.

Now, in some cases... really who cares, right? I mean if it is just another Stetson Royal, JC Penny, or other such hat that you can find 100 of at any given time, well muck around with it all you want, certainly. But don't take a rare, 100-year-old hat, tear it apart, throw away every marker of what made it that rare, 100-year-old hat, and then claim you are "preserving it."

So, I guess I am saying that it is a matter of degree. In some cases it doesn't offend the collector to alter a hat. But in other cases, it most assuredly does and should. It wholly depends on the hat.

And, as to that last point, I think this is the one that we aren't mentioning here enough. It all depends on which hat you are messing around with.

Let's put it this way, if I had one of Buffalo Bill's hats, duly authenticated and real, but I tore it apart to make it fit me, added a new sweat and took out all the markings... would it be Buffalo Bill's hat any more?

 

[John Galt]

You are certainly right that it depends on the hat. It also depends on the person.

As for preservation vs. destruction, the vast majority of renovations I have seen here and done personally make an unwearable hat wearable without altering its' basic character any more than the original owner might have done in the before times.

Most of the others are tasteful stylistic customizations that might have been made by a hat lover in any era, and are carefully done with vintage materials by and for people who really care about that sort of thing.

The notable exceptions are conversions of westerns and homburgs, but most of the western conversions (even the stagecoach conversions that Joao deplores) are usually not done to particularly historic or rare hats, and how many homburgs do most of us really want or need? (No offense fellas - I have several myself, but really ;-).

The resizing issue is particularly irksome with regard to vintage homburgs because most of those now available are too small for an average adult male, given the (admittedly anecdotal) change from 6 7/8 to about 7 1/8 as an average hat size.

The argument regarding the renovation of a truly unique & historic hat is a construct/straw man argument that few reasonable people would dispute, and will not draw me into a public argument.

In sum, I remain confident that restorative and preservative renovations of vintage hats greatly outnumber destructive conversions, particularly among the members of this forum.

I am willing to reconsider this position, but I am not likely to change my mind unless and until you can point to some actual and compelling evidence to the contrary.

If you convince me, I will publicly, honestly and humbly say "you were right and I was wrong," but I don't think it is likely...

Just my $.02.

You are, of course, free to disagree as loudly and vehemently as you choose, but I probably won't have anything more to say on the subject.

I generally avoid arguing - particularly in these venues - unless I am getting paid to do so ;-)

 

[fedoracentric]

Why is it that every time someone has a point of view around here everyone acts as if someone is trying to "start an argument." I thought we were spit balling ideas and relating how we feel about collecting hats, not "attacking" each other. Clearly you mean to scold and attack me, but I assure you I meant no such thing in my discussion above.

I really don't care if you agree with me or not, really. Of course I think you are wrong and I also contend that your definitions are off base. But so what? Clearly with your passive aggressive post you obviously think I am wrong, too, and you think MY definitions are wrong. But I take no offense at your presumption and can't imagine why you'd get mad at me for mine. You have your point of view and I have mine. That is as it should be. You are welcome to yours and I am glad you have the right to have them.

I made my case, you made yours and now others will make theirs and perhaps what we said will add to their own reasonings.

That, as it happens, is how a spirited discussion works.

No name calling occurred and no one discounted anyone's worth as a human being and nor was any implied, at least not by me. Further even if we were BOTH wrong about our ideas about hats... so what? It won't cause the creeks to rise or fall, that's for sure.

I can disagree with someone without thinking they are a terrible person. I hope others can, too.

 

[Garrett]

Since I can't find a face palm smiley...

:eusa_doh: