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Reproductions: How do you know they're accurate?

Dinerman

Super Moderator
Bartender
Messages
10,562
Location
Bozeman, MT
Since there seems to be so much more interest on this vintage site in reproductions rather than original garments, I have a question. How do you know that what you've bought is an accurate reproduction? Have you handled an original to have a point of direct comparison? Have you done research into styles, how they were originally worn, what they were made from and how the designs changed? Do you simply buy into the marketing?

My wardrobe has shifted more and more toward reproductions in the past couple of years. As a dealer, I just can't afford to keep originals any more. An original work shirt is worth money, a secondhand Ralph Lauren copy of the same thing is worth a tiny fraction of the real deal and keeps on depreciating. As someone well versed in original garments, I try to keep my repros as accurate to original garments as possible, but it can be difficult.

Despite what the advertising says, I, for instance, have no way of comparing my LVC jeans to an original pair. Despite the advertising claiming complete authenticity to the original, from my experience with other denim of the era, I can assume the rise has been lowered and the material lightened on this particular version of the copy. Can I be positive? No. Does it bother me that they may or may not be accurate to a vintage garment? I don't know. When the accuracy of a reproduction is one of the major selling points of something, you hope it's not just a marketing line.

Sometimes it is. A couple of years ago, I sold a an original late '40s- early 1950s half-belt to a repro jacket maker who I know many people on here have bought from. When the reproduction based on my original came out, it was marketed as early 1930s and authentic to a particular maker's design (the original was not made by that company or in that era). From what I saw, it was an accurate copy of the original, but the marketing was entirely used to deceive.

I can say that almost all of Schott's advertising is entirely made up, yet they keep using it and people buy jackets based on it. I can say many of the reproduction leather jackets I have been made from a weight of leather which wasn't commonly used until the 1970s. I can say that the fabric and workmanship on most reproduction workwear is much better than what was used on the originals. I can say that all the high end makers putting replica Hookless zips in their jacket are reproducing something that never existed, since that design of zip was out of production for two years before the separable bottom zipper was invented. Does it matter? Not really, but when you get into such a minutia driven thing as reproduction clothes, the closer you get to the real thing, the more the details stand out.

When dealing with vintage, details matter. The presence of a certain label, a certain zipper, a certain type of snap can place the date ten years in either direction. Particularly in the self-consciously hyper-manly world of leather jackets and repro workwear, knowledge and attention to detail is often written off as "stitch counting". But in buying, identifying and selling vintage items, the details are often the biggest clues to solving the puzzle.

Do you care about your jacket having any basis in an original style , or would you rather have something heavily modernized, with larger zippers, a longer cut to fit with low rise jeans, longer sleeves to suit modern styles and leather twice as heavy as what was ever originally used?

Even the nicest reproductions I've had have tweaked the fits for modern tastes. Japanese market garments have slimmer sleeves. RRL pants have low waists and repro jackets have added 2-4 inches onto the length of waist length styles, with a modern short half-belt or motorcycle jacket creeping well into what was considered surcoat length 50 years ago. It makes it more wearable with modern clothing and modern body types- something that doesn't require a complete vintage wardrobe to make the proportions work.
 

Ralph_Phillips

One of the Regulars
Messages
118
Location
Texas & Australia
I am no expert on any of this, so if wanting historically accurate, the method I'd use to check for that is to come to this forum and ask, because some forum member is practically guaranteed to have a collection of 32 originals of practically anything.
 

CBI

One Too Many
Messages
1,419
Location
USA
Dinerman:

So, How does one know and does one care?

For me, I know WW2 and vintage military clothing and gear pretty well so I know what to look for and ask for help if I don’t. I own lots of original and repro. My flight jacket collecting has lead me to an interest in vintage clothing simply as something to wear WITH an A-2, G-1, etc. Over the years, I have handled a fair amount of original garments to have a feel for authentic vintage but I am far from an expert. Based on experience and looking at a billion photos, I think I can gauge if a repro is close in authenticity but to be honest, as long as a repro has the right “vibe” (this is subjective of course) I am fine with it and I don’t spend too much time over-analyzing things. Its a great hobby but hey, its just clothing. Frankly, many of the very authentic looking items simply look too costume-ish for me to wear and IMO, look strange worn by others. I try to hint at the vibe without overdoing it so I am only caring so much. I am a member of denimbro and as much as I enjoy looking at the clothing, after spending an hour looking through the countless photos on the “how its Worn” thread, I had to admit, I didn’t like most of what I saw. I wonder though, you are saying you wear repro more and more due to costs/value but lots of vintage repro wear is VERY expensive?As I get older, my vintage clothing interests are diminishing. I never go with a total vintage look. I think I look better in modern/regular clothing (I hate it but its true!) and the modern ergonomic aspects of garments (like fleece) are just too comfortable to ignore. So, I guess I don’t care that much (with the exception of flight jackets!) but even here, I am softening.............a little.
 

ProteinNerd

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,902
Location
Sydney
I may be the only one but I'm not bothered about exacting historical accuracy. Granted I'm not into the military stuff and that is probably a lot more important for the guys that are.

I buy these repos because I like the general style but primarily because I'm more into the old world craftsmanship and quality. I can't stand today's "fast fashion instantly disposable clothing" trend. Give me high quality meant to last a lifetime gear any day.

Whether it has the correct number of stitches per inch or uses a double ended zipper that wasn't widely available at the time doesn't even register with me.
 

p51

One Too Many
Messages
1,119
Location
Well behind the front lines!
As for telling the difference, if you've handled original stuff for long enough, you can tell by looking at something in most cases to tell if it's repro.
My repros, to me, must pass a "Hollywood" test in that if it was used by the primary actor, would someone be able to tell it's repro from how it looks? If so, pass.
 
Messages
10,181
Location
Pasadena, CA
How would I know? Listening to guys here and on VLJ as to what is accurate. Talking with guys like JC @ GW who knows tons.
Otherwise, I'd be comparing photos and guessing.
Do I care? Not so much generally speaking. It's nice to have a couple that are as close as can be, but it's not criteria for most of my gear. I generally like a "look" or style and try to fill that want.
 

Superfluous

My Mail is Forwarded Here
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3,995
Location
Missing in action
I do not care about unwavering historical accuracy. As long as the garment broadly reflects the design and spirit of the original, such that it was clearly inspired by the original, I am fine with practical deviations -- particularly when the deviations render the garment more functional and/or better fitting. For example, many original jackets have shorter sleeves and bodies, and wider/roomier chests and sleeves. I prefer reproductions that deviate from the original by lengthening and slimming the body and sleeves. For me, the better fit more than justifies the deviation from the original.
 

IXL

One Too Many
Messages
1,284
Location
Oklahoma
I may be the only one but I'm not bothered about exacting historical accuracy. Granted I'm not into the military stuff and that is probably a lot more important for the guys that are.

I buy these repos because I like the general style but primarily because I'm more into the old world craftsmanship and quality. I can't stand today's "fast fashion instantly disposable clothing" trend. Give me high quality meant to last a lifetime gear any day.

Whether it has the correct number of stitches per inch or uses a double ended zipper that wasn't widely available at the time doesn't even register with me.

This pretty much sums up my view, as well. As an example, I like having two hand warmer pockets on a "B3." The ones with the "correct" map pocket look real neat and everything but having a place to park my hands when wearing a coat that I'll only be wearing when it is very cold is a real-world, practical feature.
 
Messages
10,181
Location
Pasadena, CA
Funny, Super's post made me think of how I was humiliated into looking for a new jacket when an "A-2" I got years ago had hand-warming pockets. I really hate those now - except of course on a jacket where it's not a point of contention. I didn't know at the time ;)
 

Sloan1874

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,425
Location
Glasgow
I think what I'm saying is that some jackets look their best when they tack as close to the original as possible: tubular arms, handwarmers and teddy bear shearling on an Irvin don't do it for me because the original was so different. Similarly, you stick handwarmers on an A-2 it doesn't work, mainly because it adds layers of leather that affect the line/drape of the jacket.
 

Graemsay

Practically Family
Messages
994
Location
Melbourne
I think that it depends on what you're buying, but I think that JC's attitude is the best: If it's a reproduction jacket (e.g. one of his A2s), then be anal about the details. If it's something that's more inspired by, than an exact copy, then be a bit more liberal.

There were also knock-offs in period, and semi-accurate replicas afterwards. I'm a fan of the East-West Musical Instruments Barnstomer. Dinerman has an Ibex version on his blog, and Aero did a reproduction for LVC a few years back. If you look at all of them there are subtle (and not so subtle) differences. Were I to get one made, I'd be tempted to steal details off all three, meaning it'd fall into the "inspired by" rather than replica category.
 

nick123

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,371
Location
California
I generally go for repros because I can have length added to a custom order. But as I've become less picky fit-wise, I have been equally attracted to the originals. Some are just too short for my tastes though. I'd love to have a collection of 50s civilian flight jackets, but 25" back length is the shortest I'll allow myself to purchase online without trying one on in person.

The repro appeal to me, has much more to do with quality of materials and the assurence I'm purchasing a well-made product than accuracy. However, accuracy is an interesting element which is icing on the cake.
 

nick123

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,371
Location
California
I agree. Sometimes, accurate replication of certain esoteric details can be very appealing, even if the jacket diverges from the original in other respects.

And knowing HOW a repro differs from an original is interesting too. Part of the fun is learning the little nuances and comparing old to new.
 

Ralph_Phillips

One of the Regulars
Messages
118
Location
Texas & Australia
I think it's easier to do the comparisons when it comes to military as there are plenty of examples of originals kicking around out there to compare details on - hence the obsessive attention to detail that repros come in for.

That is probably true, additionally, all the military stuff is made according to a set of written specifications, and one can usually refer to the original specifications if necessary.
 

Seb Lucas

I'll Lock Up
Messages
7,562
Location
Australia
I'm interested in vintage clothes, I like well designed items and people's enthusiasm is contagious but I wouldn't own or wear many vintage items or even repros myself. No different to being interested in aviation without having to own a plane. As said by someone else earlier, vintage gear worn today can look odd. Nevertheless the world is far more interesting when people have their passions and exercise them. In terms of owning jackets, for instance, I am happy for something to be inspired by a vintage look. I don't care enough to go further.
 

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