REPRO flight jackets a little too good?

[Fiver64]

I'm A-2 deficient

fiver - which repro A-2's do you own?

While I do own numerous non-flight jackets, I regret to say that I only own two A-2s. One is a HH in russet from US Authentic (love it, but not dead-nuts authentic) and the second is coming today....... a spectacular custom made "Duboniger" from SUPERIOR FLIGHT APPAREL! Not sure if you follow FISHMEOK's work on FL, but couldn't let this one slip by. You can still see it at: http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=46199.

It's coming in today's mail, so I'm eagerly staring at the mailbox.

Like most of us, I have had a few others over the years, including 3 COOPERS, a HH AVIREX, TAYLOR'S LEATHERWEAR and a couple other brands best left to history.

What do you have???

 

[Fiver64]

I do have a quiet chuckle when I see perfect reproduction uniforms being worn by guys that would only just have made the Home Guard, I recently did a series of cartoons seen on the VLJ forum that had a friendly dig at how we hope the wearing of a jacket would transform the way we look...

As the old saying goes, "Hey! I resemble that remark!" Actually, I'm happy as long as I can look down and still see my.......ah.......... belt buckle, without having to bend forward. My A-2 makes me feel so much more burly and flighty and the envy of women everywhere! lol OK.......... well maybe not all.

When I first met my wife, I was proudly wearing my custom-painted (by me) Avirex HH A-2. She soon informed me that she hated it and would never been seen in public with me wearing a scantily-clad Vargas girl (which she called "porn!"). So I sold it. Kicking myself now and would love to have my old jacket back! Sooooooooooo, if anyone happens to run across a bloke wearing an A-2 with "AMAZING GRACE" painted across the back (above said girly), please drop me a note!

 

[Atticus Finch]

I've thought much about this over the years. In my opinion, some people who buy expensive reproduction military jackets often confuse accuracy with authenticity...and they're willing to pay huge money for the former in a vain attempt to purchase the latter. They then blame tiny faults in the details of their expensive, new, reproduction jacket...for its failure to be real.

Again, just my little opinion.

AF

 

[Fiver64]

profound.....

AF............ In very few words you have possibly (and eloquently) summed up much of what I suspect. Thanks!

 

[P5640blouson]

Jacket Mil-Spec

If you want to know more, read the requisite spec for the jacket, it contains acceptable limits to ensure the forces end up with a fully functional piece in the inventory. If you jacket falls out of the acceptable specs for any manufacturing parameter, there is a chance that that particular piece was a reject from the outset, ended up in the quartermaster's junk pile for expulsion from issue. I don't doubt many that end up in otherwise newer condition through the years are that type. So, if your issue piece has actual use history, it may be a reject. Members who have experienced issued gear first hand know how this happens at issue points and quartermasters know how this happens in gear acceptance points. Perhaps ex-mil members can chime up about their issue experiences.

 

[aswatland]

If you want to know more, read the requisite spec for the jacket, it contains acceptable limits to ensure the forces end up with a fully functional piece in the inventory. If you jacket falls out of the acceptable specs for any manufacturing parameter, there is a chance that that particular piece was a reject from the outset, ended up in the quartermaster's junk pile for expulsion from issue. I don't doubt many that end up in otherwise newer condition through the years are that type. So, if your issue piece has actual use history, it may be a reject. Members who have experienced issued gear first hand know how this happens at issue points and quartermasters know how this happens in gear acceptance points. Perhaps ex-mil members can chime up about their issue experiences.

My understanding is that all contract A2s were inspected before they left the factories-hence the inspectors stamp on the lining. It was surely at this point when the odd jacket was rejected. Therefore it is unlikely that quartermasters rejected A2 jackets as being substandard. Most of the near mint originals, and I own several, were not rejects (they have no defects to suggest they were!), but were issued to officers who wore them little in the war and stored them sensibly for many years afterwards, rather than paint their house in them.

I used to own a RW A2 which had a severely mismatched collar and was rejected prior to it leaving the factory. It had the usual serial number in the pocket as issued jackets did, but never had a military contract label.

 

[kampkatz]

Thanks once again , Andrew, for insight on the aspect of issuing flight jackets. One can see that there was some quality control on the finished product.

 

[P5640blouson]

Read the spec. At the factory inspections occur but in wartime production (and peacetime) what the factory passes and what the spec requires are often two different scenarious. That is why samples are taken during receipt by the forces to ensure adherence with the spec. Sure the manufacturer wants to pass every article to minimize losses, but the quartermasters ensure final quality before issue. Many gear get rejected at the issue points for reasons of damage, to defects in manufacture. I.e. a field jacket can have pockets out of alignment by as much as 1/2 inch, for example, and still meet spec. but the ones that are are more off than that look horrendous and very noticeable, many of which find their way straight to DRMO as they are held off from issue or otherwise rejected at issue. By the time the quartermaster has time for warranty, the items are already out of warranty as the defective stuff just sat in the warehouse. Straight to DRMO or into someones personal stash after that.

My understanding is that all contract A2s were inspected before they left the factories-hence the inspectors stamp on the lining. It was surely at this point when the odd jacket was rejected. Therefore it is unlikely that quartermasters rejected A2 jackets as being substandard. Most of the near mint originals, and I own several, were not rejects (they have no defects to suggest they were!), but were issued to officers who wore them little in the war and stored them sensibly for many years afterwards, rather than paint their house in them.

I used to own a RW A2 which had a severely mismatched collar and was rejected prior to it leaving the factory. It had the usual serial number in the pocket as issued jackets did, but never had a military contract label.

 

[aswatland]

Read the spec. At the factory inspections occur but in wartime production (and peacetime) what the factory passes and what the spec requires are often two different scenarious. That is why samples are taken during receipt by the forces to ensure adherence with the spec. Sure the manufacturer wants to pass every article to minimize losses, but the quartermasters ensure final quality before issue. Many gear get rejected at the issue points for reasons of damage, to defects in manufacture. I.e. a field jacket can have pockets out of alignment by as much as 1/2 inch, for example, and still meet spec. but the ones that are are more off than that look horrendous and very noticeable, many of which find their way straight to DRMO as they are held off from issue or otherwise rejected at issue. By the time the quartermaster has time for warranty, the items are already out of warranty as the defective stuff just sat in the warehouse. Straight to DRMO or into someones personal stash after that.

I was specifically referring to WW2 A2 jackets, where the 1931 spec for the A2 was not as specific as for later issued garments. Perhaps you can share with us the evidence about WW2 jackets being rejected when they arrived at USAAF QM stores and explain about the warranty period for them?

 

[P5640blouson]

We could use some A-2 issueee's input

We could use some A-2 issueee's input or maybe some WWII quartermaster's input. Regarding your specific question and time period, I can only speak for the last three wars where rapid fielding of equipment causes many defective gear to show up and then sorted out.

I can sow you quite a few field jackets, some of which are spot on expert sewn and some not so good but still meet specs. It varies a lot. If you are in with the quartermaster, you can pick and choose a bit better. I've seen stuff so off sewn that functionality is affected. Those stay behind. I gather if the function of your jacket is ok then it should be an issued piece.

OP:
I was specifically referring to WW2 A2 jackets, where the 1931 spec for the A2 was not as specific as for later issued garments. Perhaps you can share with us the evidence about WW2 jackets being rejected when they arrived at USAAF QM stores and explain about the warranty period for them?
__________________

 

[aswatland]

We could use some A-2 issueee's input or maybe some WWII quartermaster's input. Regarding your specific question and time period, I can only speak for the last three wars where rapid fielding of equipment causes many defective gear to show up and then sorted out.

Most vets would be 85+ and do not belong to this forum!
This is certainly a subject worthy of academic research.

 

[Fiver64]

Most vets would be 85+ and do not belong to this forum!

Our loss! I rented a flat from a WW2 vet (George Roosz) in Columbus, Ohio (back in the 90's and now deceased) and he still maintained a pilots license well into his 80s. Anyway, we often spoke of the war...... he flew P-47s with the 78th.... and had fond memories of his A-2. He shipped it home and his kid-brothers got ahold of it!

I do recall one story that he related. After V-E Day he left the USAAC and attached to the Navy until the end of the war. He said that on his way home from Japan in late '45 or early '46 he shipped stateside on an aircraft carrier. While there, he said he sat and watched huge crates and boxes of clothing, ammo, gear, jeeps, you-name-it........including Unissued A-2 and G-1 jackets, all get tossed overboard before reaching the states!

He said it all seemed like such a waste. He said he watched for hours as sailors took out a jacket, slashed a long gash down the back with some sort of knife, and tossed them overboard. I asked about why bothering to cut them if they were going over anyway....... but he didn't know.......... just remembered them doing it. I supose just in case they might wash up somewhere!

I later learned that the military had made deals with most of the manufacturers of wartime goods, that the majority of the items were NOT to be allowed back into the country, for belief that cheap surplus goods would flood the market and stall the needed growth of peacetime industry. Unsure if this was the case across the board, but I know it was for sure with some of the vehicle makers. They were supposedly only allowed back if they would remain in military service for X amount of time.

Anyone know if Britain did the same? Is there a British wartime leather equivelent of the A-2?? Inquiring minds need to know...........

 

[Cigarband]

Many years ago I worked with a former Navy TBF pilot who told me that when his Carrier returned to the States for demob, the Pilots had to turn in any unpersonalized G-1s and all issue watches. He saw G-1s burned in bonfires and watches crushed by road rollers.:rage:

 

[Phantomfixer]

Kind of off topic ...Dover AFB has/had a pit on the east side of the base back in 46/47. After the war wharehouses where emptied into the pit and it was covered over. I talked with several vets that were stationed here and they all had the same story. All kinds of gear from parachutes to helmets to all else military. Something else.. A fellow who was employed at the local DRMO stated that aircraft parts where returned to Dover AFB from overseas bases in Europe to include Thule Greenland,in the LATE 1980's wrapped in sheepskin jackets/pants. The jackets/pants where meant as a cushion to the part during shipment! Alot of these parts were avionics etc. The parts were taken out of the box and the box and sheepskin went into the dumpster.:rage:
I had a 1942 canteen cover issued to me at DAFB brand new! Also numerous pieces of blue nylon cold weather gear from the 50's. This is in the late 90's folks.

 

[feltfan]

I was certainly aware of the odd contradiction when I ordered
my Good Wear A-1. On the one hand, the A-1 was a military
jacket issued, not fitted. Pictures show great variation in how
they were worn.

On the other hand, I was forking over big bucks and getting a
hand made jacket created from Australian capeskin that was so pretty it was
like something one might associate with an arts and crafts era object.
I certainly expected it to fit well. No doubt better than the original
wearers could have expected theirs to fit. I spent time with John in person,
tried on some jackets from his collection, and let him measure me- luxuries
no serviceman was ever afforded.

A high dollar military reproduction is at its core a contradiction.

Er, mind you I am very happy with my jacket.

 

[P5640blouson]

contradiction to a point

contradiction to a point, but not completely. There are those in the forces who either get lucky and fitted well, and those who are concientious of their own appearance and take care to get the correct fit. From trading stuff with your buddies to buying personally from the clothing sales, to getting stuff nicely pressed for those inspections. The high speed soldiers did all that and some of them even more so. Of course I am not talking about in the heat of combat in the forward AOs, but when available, you have to kill time doing something. Personal maintenance was one of those best things a soldier can do. Safer in the long run than getting dumb and stupid as some did. The only thing I got issued that did not fit were my boots, that critical piece of issue left me buying my own pairs for use. I've sinced owned over 12-14 pairs of boots through the years, not all at the same time, sometimes giving them away and purchasing new to get a revised fit.

 

[CBI]

I should be reading all of the posts of this thread but time is short. Repro companies simply have had a hard time balancing a truly authentic/accurate look, a "worts and all" product with the expectations buyers have with traditional "clean/perfect" retail clothing. Good Wear leather is the only repro flight jacket company that makes no modern concessions in regards the adding a modern touch. Other companies have recently added the option of time worn or "real deal" lesser leathers (lesser by modern retails standards). But most play in safe with more "modern" cuts. Are repro A-2's too good? well, they might be too perfect in relation to a quickly put together original A-2 but a company like Good Wear gets it right. Yes, folks can get a bit crazy in regards the smallest points with repros. Funny, this is not the case owning originals. With the real thing, there are no issues, its simply a real jacket with all of the imperfections. Although I am not implying it in THIS case, I know many negative critiques about repros are really more emotional in nature and seem to be based a little more on who owns which jacket, a "my A-2 is better than yours" deal. This probably accounts for at least half of the "repro wars". This is also the opinion of most who manufacture repros.

 

[bobbyball]

As I see it, the biggest difference in modern repro companies and the original contractors products are that the former are businesses which are selling their product to very particular, fussy and demanding customers (ie: US!).

The original contractors were given government specs which they all followed with some, but not huge, variation. They were not selling to individuals and the recipients of their product were issued them and so opinions on cut, collar shape, zippers, pocket size, shape of epaulets and leather quality were not discussed by their owners – what would be the point and more importantly they had more important things on their mind.

All of us have our own favourite jackets and repro makers – I find as time goes on I am getting more and more fussy about the details in a repro because these things are not just a cheap leather jacket. When you are paying £500+ for a simply constructed jacket, which the A2 is, it is not unreasonable to be festidious about the details.

I have two original A2s at present. One is a well worn (great patina) Eighth AF example and the other is a mint CBI Roughwear. They are both horsehide and the mint example still looks fresh and as new. Are they better constructed than the high end repros? This is a tricky one. Certainly the cut and fit is an issue with some repros but they are not necessarily inferior in construction. I remember in my student days visiting the Thrift Shop near Clapham (This was Ken Calder before Aero Leather began) and he had a shop full of original A2s in varying states of condition. A friend of mine recently gave me a copy of his pricelist from those days and the most expensive A2s were named jackets with unit history and these were around £600! I remember I could have had a very good plain original for around £150 but my student grant just could not stretch to that.

I remember looking through the racks and some of the jackets were better made and the leather varied wildely than others.

Andrew points out that original Aero Leather jackets have a good deal of variation and I would agree with this. Perhaps as one of the largest contractors at the time they churned these jackets out at lightening speed and variation in materials and construction was at times compromised.

I have heard that when the repro makers are very busy that sometimes the quality control can also suffer.

 

[havocpaul]

Is there any chance you could do me a copy of Ken's Thrift Shop price list, happy to pay for the trouble. I was a regular customer spending more than I earnt (!) on original jackets from that emporium. Nothing beat that building excitement as I walked towards the shop from Clapham Junction station, the double shop front windows were full of original jackets many with painting and patches. I also liked the fact that we could take back any jacket and part-exchange/swap it for a 'new' original as stock was very fluid.

 

[bobbyball]

I also remember ordering my first Aero Leather A2. I was a bit fat back then and ordered a size 48 with the red silk lining they offered back then.

The jacket was very stiff and had a uniform appearance to the leather – very smooth and a little shiny. I never really wore it and traded it back to Aero a few years later.

Ken really knew his stuff and although his early repros were not “spot on” in terms of all the details, they made a fine jacket.

Although I haven’t bought an Aero for a long time I am going up to Scotland this spring and will try to visit the factory again. I know Will has some original stuff that doesn’t even make the website so who knows!!