Remember Dec 7th!

[The Wolf]

Two interesting films for today

Considering it is 7:30 PM here I'm probably a bit late for this.
A lot of people are probably watching "Tora, Tora, Tora" or "Pearl Harbor" today but might not know about two movies about the personal stateside look at December 7th.
"December" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101695/
and "Come See the Paradise" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099291/

The Wolf

 

[MrBern]

In Dec2001, I had the good fortune to be in Honolulu for the PearlHarbor Anniversary. Very touching to see the vets walking the streets of Hawaii. For many, it had been the first time since the end of the war.
It was truly awesome.
At th Punchbowl, standing along with the WWII vets were NYCFiremen, Firemen's widows & children.
It was really something to see the Veterans & the 9/11 survivors consoling each other.

 

[Wild Root]

I heard that the 60th Anniversary was really special. Sadly, I was trapped in a Winnipeg winter in Manitoba that year so, my Pearl Harbor day was quiet and I was the only person who cared about it.

Funny the Alamo was mentioned. In the song "Remember Pearl Harbor" it mentions the Alamo!

Some lyrics from the song:

Let's Remember, Pearl Harbor, as we go to meet the foe!

Let's Remember, Pearl Harbor, as did the Alamo!

=WR=

 

[MDFrench]

The only disappointment I have with the Pearl Harbor memorial ceremonies every year are the F-15 flyovers. I think it would be much more appropriate to have a B-17 and two P-40 Warhawks do a flyover, as these were the planes that were in the skies on Dec 7, 1941 when the attack began.

 

[SHARPETOYS]

I try to keep his grave as neat as possible!

He spent a part of the war in the states, repairing army vehicles. Then, off to the European theatre, landing after Normandy and slogging all the way through The Buldge to VE Day in the infantry. Waking up in snowcovered foxholes, watching friends die. He was onboard the ship bound for the Pacific at VJ Day.
Here, he stopped for a moment on a bench somewhere in Belgium. I love this picture; in spite of conditions that would have shattered many men, he wears a grin. Either he had gotten great news, or the photographer had great legs...
He died suddenly April 2, 1989. I try to keep his grave as neat as possible, and I always remember this day, December 7th.

Here's remembering all of them, men and women, who gave their best years in service of a just cause. They were truly The Greatest Generation.

Thank you sir for the words and picture of your Hero it means alot to me.

Sharpey

 

[MrBern]

Yes, th 60th was quite special. But it was a hard time, in the shadow of 9/11 as many people feared airtravel.
At Pearl, the tourguides were pointing out that the vets were getting old & it might be the last really big anniversary with so many of them still able to travel all th way to Hawaii. So it was a very special feeling to disembark the ArizonaMemorial & see some of the vets spontaneously salute their fallen comrades goodbye.
Actually, we were at Pearl onthe 6th. The 7th was reserved for special ceremonies. So we went to the Punchbowl ceremonies that day.
Its was a bit surreal to see our local neighborhood firemen there in attendance.
My mom was rather moved to hear the story of a serviceman who had broken up with his girl right before the sneakattack. Then for weeks they didnt know if the other was alive. When they found each other, they got reconciled & married right away. The service man became a preacher. He was escorted by his son who was also a preacher. Sadly, the wife had jsut passed away a few months before.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

He said 'Japs'...gasp....

I was six years old when THE JAPS tried to annihilate our fleet and they almost succeeded. I remember standing in the kitchen of our home in Omaha and wondering why all of the women in the house were crying. I had two relatives - USMC - stationed there at the time. They both survived and the stories they told of laying in the grass in their underwear, firing at attacking planes - flying so close to the ground that the pilots faces were visable - still haunt me today.
It may be decades and generations later, but I still "Remember Pearl Harbor!" If you didn't experience that time or have relatives that did, you don't have a clue of how bad it was. My neighborhood had many windows that displayed red stars, the sign that the people that lived there had lost a son, brother or father.

I had a good friend that was part of the Marine Contingent at PH. They had to try to defend themselves with '02 Springfields. He ended up manning a AA gun in his skivvies.

I had relatives that fought on the Islands and on ship in the Pacific.

The Imperial Japanese had all intention of ruling the world, as did Nazi Germany. Recorded history indicates that if the Japanese had suceeded at PH they would have tried California next. So don't give me that nonsense that mainland America was safe from the Japanese during WWII. That's like saying that the rest of America is safe because the Muslim Fanatics only bombed NYC and DC.

Alot of men and women gave their lives for the cause of freedom in the war against Japanese Imperialism, and we need to keep their memory alive for sure. But we can't belittle their memory by putting a human face on or elevating the stature of the enemy they fought so gallantly.

And by the way, the reason they are not a threat today is because we utterly destroyed them and took away their will and means to fight.

 

[Zemke Fan]

Glad this thread has gotten back on track...

We Americans have incredibly short memories. Most of my friends have forgotten that we are still (in my opinion) a nation at war. I ride both the commuter rail and the Washington subway every day to work and I live in a near-constant state of anxiety that the fiends will strike again. All of us that congregate in this place should vow to NEVER forget December 7th or September 11th and the sacrifices that others have made on our behalf.

In that spirit, and because I have come to respect ALL of you who so passionately participate in this particular area of the Fedora Lounge, let us pledge to each other that: (1) we will at all times show gentlemanly respect to everyone who posts here; (2) we will carefully review our own submissions and take care to temper passion with reason; (3) we will revise our own remarks to delete references to others that have caused them unintentional harm.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting that everyone suddenly become all politically correct. What I am suggesting is that we strive to stay on track and where disagreements arise let's keep them civil and respectful. I like you all and want you (and me) to stick around. This can become a true band of brothers if our sibling animosities don't result in some Cain-Able results.

Fred

PS: IMHO, some of you guys still need to edit your remarks on this thread.

 

[locobuster]

Hello, I'm new here. I found this forum kind of by accident and have learned a lot just by browsing through many of the posts. I'm a 42 year-old graphic artist and historical researcher as well as a major WWII buff.

This Pearl Harbor thread brought to mind the story of a man I researched for a recent CD-ROM project. His name was Stephen Saltzman and he hailed from Wilmington, Delaware. At the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor he and a Sgt. ran up to the roof Schofield Barracks and shot down an attacking two-seat dive bomber with Browning Automatic Rifles. Some sources cite this as the first aircraft downed that fateful day. Saltzman received the Silver Star for his actions.

He later transferred to the U.S. Army Air Corps and became part of the 20th Fighter Group, 79th Fighter Squadron. On May 25, 1944 his P-38 Lightning was hit in the engine and cockpit area by anti-aircraft fire. The force of the explosion shattered the top of the aircraft's control column and broke both his right wrist and one of the fingers of his right hand as well as wounding him in the left arm and thigh. Jettisoning his canopy, he prepared to bail out. He then realized both engines were still working properly and headed towards home using only his left hand on what remained of the control column.

As he crossed the enemy coast the aircraft's right engine quit, but he managed to get back to England, landing at a base near the coast. He stopped the aircraft on the runway and immediately lost consciousness from loss of blood. After a stay in a British hospital, he was transferred to an American hospital and then finally was returned home to the United States. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for bringing the aircraft home under such conditions and the press proclaimed it as "the one of the most remarkable feats in aerial fighting over Europe."

After his recovery he became a flight instructor here in the states and later became an assistant Air Attach?ɬ© with the American Embassy in Brazil. He finally left the military life on May 31, 1964, retiring with the final rank of Colonel. He passed away on December 20, 2000 and was laid to rest in Arlington National Cemetery.

I've always thought of this man as one of the great interviews I will never get to do and it saddens me to think most of his stories have now disappeared forever.

 

[scotrace]

Great story!

Neat tale - you get lucky with an interview like that now and again. I really urge anyone with living relatives who were veterans of any conflict to get those stories recorded.

 

[MrBern]

'They' are not us.
We're in the 21st century.
We do not need to perpetuate epithets or disparage our allies.
We shouldnt be surprised when our peers are disturdbed by the spirit of abusive slang.

I would never defend the malevolent actions of the Japanese during the war. Nor would I ever second guess dropping two nukes on them. I just think that what we type here speaks of who we all are.
PresGeorgeBush once spoke that he harbored no ill will towards the Japanese, that WWII is over, its HISTORY.

God bless all those who gave their lives fighting for democracy.

-B

I had a good friend that was part of the Marine Contingent at PH. They had to try to defend themselves with '02 Springfields. He ended up manning a AA gun in his skivvies.

I had relatives that fought on the Islands and on ship in the Pacific.

The Imperial Japanese had all intention of ruling the world, as did Nazi Germany. Recorded history indicates that if the Japanese had suceeded at PH they would have tried California next. So don't give me that nonsense that mainland America was safe from the Japanese during WWII. That's like saying that the rest of America is safe because the Muslim Fanatics only bombed NYC and DC.

Alot of men and women gave their lives for the cause of freedom in the war against Japanese Imperialism, and we need to keep their memory alive for sure. But we can't belittle their memory by putting a human face on or elevating the stature of the enemy they fought so gallantly.

And by the way, the reason they are not a threat today is because we utterly destroyed them and took away their will and means to fight.

 

[shamus]

why was I removed?

 

[The Captain]

why was I removed?

Shamus, the "PC POLICE" are alive and well here on FL. Be careful what you say.

 

[MrBern]

Now back on topic...the Marine I mentioned earlier that survived PH told me he slept in his clothes for years after the attack. He fought all that morning in his underwear.

I have a 90 yr old friend who still suffers from the wounds incurred in NewGuinea. He once told us of sleeping w/ a 45 in his hand & waking to see his best buddy being bayonetted to death by two 'japs'. He shot them in the moonlight. Since 9/11, he has nightmares again. But now he see's CIVILIAN casualties.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

My Father in Law joined the US Navy right after PH...He left his senior year at Tom's River High School (NJ) and went directly to the Pacific. He was on all the Major and some of the minor islands and saw plenty of action. When the Japs surrendered he came home and had to take 12th grade over. Needless to say he was the big war hero and didn't have to crack a book that year. Some of his teachers were vets and he had more in common with them than he did with his fellow students. He did have alot of girlfriends that year.

 

[Mycroft]

I understand what you?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re saying, and being part Japanese, Dutch, English & Irish. I honestly don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t let it bother me, unless they said it to my face. I enjoy Japanese food, culture, its rich history same as I do with English, Italians, Russian, German and what else is out there.
WR started this thread as a tribute not as a race issue, should remain on topic but I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ve notice most of Bob?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s posts come off as angry, or resentment, maybe it was stress. I sure hope he isn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t a wife, or child beater. He?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s got some personal issues and vents it here. All in all I think Bob?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s intelligent enough to know better, right from wrong, and he shouldn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t take this as offensive. I do believe he said he isn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t offended on the internet.
Anyway enjoy the holidays. (burp) I've said enough
MrBern, Shamus, WR, Andy and others, you guys are are amazing, enjoy your comments, in all honesty if any one doesn't agree on a post probably best to ignore the person, no sense beating a dead horse.

'Nips' on McHalesNavy?' yeah it was but you couldn't say japs on TV
Lets lighten up, Cheers and happy Holidays :cheers1:

I am with you, guys( and I guess girls) look would the men and women who sacrificed themselves in Pearl Habor sacrificed for America to stay America, that means no one is predice or calls names, think of what the people in Pearl Harbor would say if they say this, this is pointess. I think we should honor what sacrifices made to maintain our equality and tollernece. Anyway, thats just what I think. So, heres to them :cheers1: .

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Captain, Andykev, MK and Biltmore Bob, thank you for your definitions.

 

[PADDY]

GENERAL MESSAGE (Thread Lock Down)

GENERAL MESSAGE: This thread to remember Dec 7th has disappointingly, at times veered closely to a bar room brawl of mud slinging and I have been forced into pruning it very heavily. Something that gives me no pleasure. So the version above is unfortunately quite a sanitized one.

It makes it all the more sad & disappointing, due to the original sombre topic of 'remembering,' that day in 1941, the mud slinging hardly accords the respect that was intended for this day or for this thread started by Rob.
Gents... Any sniping, personal point scoring and one-up-manship at the expense of a thread, is frankly unacceptable and any retorts that might purposely incite others or hijack threads will all be hard edited.

Most of you know me well enough by now I'm trying to run a tight but fair ship that is courteous, enjoyable, educational, motivational and safe for all ladies and gents who grace us with their presence, conducted in behaviour suitable for ladies & gentlemen. I favour no individuals above the rules, standards and ethos of the Lounge. And that's what makes our little oasis of vintage decorum on the internet unique. Anarchy can be found elsewhere in this world.

There is no pleasure in having to hard edit/prune entries or be seen as one member said, the PC POLICE, but if the hand is forced, then needs must guys, no question about it.

As most of you know, I keep a light, but strong hand on the tiller here and personally, I'd rather be sipping a hot cup of Joe or Bushmills and enjoy reading the threads for pleasure, than wading through 300 entries like an old school teacher with a red pen! but it goes with the rank and the territory.

I truely appreciate the great enthusiasm and spirit that you guys bring to WW2, especially you more spirited young bucks, and you folk bring life and motivation to this place.

But, be in no doubt gentlemen, I will bring things to check very quickly, if behaviour becomes unacceptable on the floor.

If this ruffles a few proud feathers, so be it. But it's the rank you are saluting, not the person.

If I don't speak to you beforehand, best wishes to you and your family over the Xmas period across the pond and the many corners of the world we all come from.

Kindest Regards, PADDY.