Real McCoy's not expensive enough for you? Try this...

[dudewuttheheck]

@dudewhatheheck, whatever you paid for it, you've admitted that you didn't pay the list price, so I don't understand why you're getting upset about people criticizing the list price, and trying to defend the list price.
If you went out and bought a new RMC jacket at the list price, then yeah, I might take you seriously when you say they aren't overpriced. But right now, I don't.

I did pay list price. I paid the Japanese list price. Again, you are either wrong or misquoting me.... how many times are you going to do this before you stop?

Also, you are missing the point of my argument. If you have been reading our conversation, my main issue is and has not been complaints of price, it is the dismissive nature in which people like myself who buy RMC jackets that I take issue with.

Stop lying and misrepresenting my words.

Don't try to ignore the fact that you have been lying about what I have been saying and making incorrect assumptions about my character this entire conversation.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. I have a problem with you being this much of a bully for no good reason and then act as though you have done nothing wrong.

 

[Big J]

@dudewhattheheck,
It seems I owe you an apology. I didn't see the part where you said you paid the Japan list price. So many posts on this thread, I missed it, and some of your comments are quite long, and look the same to me. And when you start talking about your superior taste in clothes, I just kind of skip the rest.
I'm not trying to bully you, I don't care about your character. Let's all calm down and stop typing in capitals shall we?
I was merely rejecting your defense of the price point, and your reasons for doing so.
Believe that or not as you wish. I'm sure I'll hear from the moderator on your behalf.
SMH.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

@dudewhattheheck,
It seems I owe you an apology. I didn't see the part where you said you paid the Japan list price. So many posts on this thread, I missed it, and some of your comments are quite long, and look the same to me. And when you start talking about your superior taste in clothes, I just kind of skip the rest.
I'm not trying to bully you, I don't care about your character. Let's all calm down and stop typing in capitals shall we?
I was merely rejecting your defense of the price point, and your reasons for doing so.
Believe that or not as you wish. I'm sure I'll hear from the moderator on your behalf.
SMH.

The only time I said something related to me having 'superior taste in clothing' I said this:

"It's important to note that the people on this forum are generally into leather jackets above all else. People who buy Real McCoys jackets tend to be people that are into high quality/heritage or whatever you want to call it clothing such as @Benj , @Superfluous , and myself."

I can understand how this came across as saying that I see my taste as superior, but that is not what I meant at all. I meant to say that people like myself who buy RMC are a certain type of person who are into a certain type of clothing. I said high quality/heritage clothing as a sort of genre tied with raw denim to simply try to classify, not to say that people who buy RMC like better clothing than everyone else. I should not have said 'high quality.' This came off completely wrong and I am sorry about that. I only meant to clarify what type of clothing that the people that I know who buy RMC are into. It's more of a genre of clothing so to speak. This is what I meant to say and I did try to clarify this already in two separate posts on the last page.

I apologize for not saying this better in the first place, but I did clarify this point in a later post so I would appreciate if you read the entire posts if you are going to bother replying to me at all because you ignored my posts because of my superior attitude when ironically, I specifically clarified to say that I do not see myself or people like me as superior, just different.

Why have a conversation with me at all if "all my posts look the same?" You cannot have a conversation if you are not going to take the entire conversation into consideration.

As I said above, the price was not even the main point of my argument. The post I made that started all this was disagreeing with the dismissive comment someone made about people who buy RMC and not about the price.

 

[navetsea]

you all spend too much on your jackets there I said it, so stop arguing and do group hugging.

our demand and hype over something shapes the price, when there is some jaket makers who can make a structurally and aesthetically pleasing similar item for let say $300, and make you look as badass objectively as anything more expensive, how would you justify spending anything more? probably yes because to some extent be believe this $300 jacket must be bad, the leather might be corrected leather which is weak since internet says so, and probably has low stitch count per inch or something which is bad since someone said so, and yet that "the most beautiful horse hide in the world" that sits in a bath for a year to make would permanently stained from rain, or losing its color within few years of use, so what is quality again? for some the jacket that looks brand new decades after purchase date is quality, some other think jacket that deteriorates faster than you say patina is quality and anything in between.

to some extent we all sinned to buy some hype, and use the price we paid as our assurance of assumed quality... I think the pricing for MTO company is a way to limit order to make it doable without making their workers overloaded with orders, and the pricing on OTR is mainly to put the brand in certain market segment.

 

[Benj]

What do you mean stained in the rain...?

I was caught in the rain in my convertible for 45 minutes wearing my jacket and it only looked better for it.

Do you mean if it’s light colored? If so, it just depends on the type of tanning the leather went through.

The thing that drives me crazy about arguing the pricing is only to put it in a market segment, and not because that might actually be the fair price of a jacket, is that no one here (including me) actually knows how much the jacket costs to make and how it might differ from aero and the like.

If we don’t know that, it’s complete conjecture to assume that the pricing is just a scheme to convince people it’s worth more than it actually is.

 

[navetsea]

not a scheme just reality, easiest is computer products, with the same spec, using processor with the same spec, same graphic card, same drive capacity, what makes one brand much more expensive than other, sometime because it is labelled as gaming PC, sometime because of the brand. Most likely they all came out from the same oem factory in china.

it is not a bad thing, if you have a good product, and you have set up your brand so you can sell at certain price so it would attract this level of clients, and so get celebrities and alike wearing them proudly, what is wrong with it, it is still must be a good product or good enough product.

 

[Blackadder]

Shiniki has its strength or it would not be used by some of the top Western makers as well. It is not better, prettier, more durable or any of the full grain, top grain quality so fiercely marketed by someone. It is actually quite ridiculous and pretentious in some people's eyes. A number of the Japanese brands in re-creating the vintage look want their garments to achieve the 40-50 years look in a much much quicker wear time. This coupled with the facts that most people in Japan who can afford those clothing or rather who buy those clothing are not workers themselves who can "ruin" the normal contemporary leather jacket (Schott/ Vanson grade) and/or jeans (Wrangler) in a year. So they pick the materials and the manufacturing process that would speed up the normal wear and tear. Remember how DD hand painted a top coat of black onto a member's J-21? That was IMHO a significant strength or selling point of Shiniki brown leather vs say Horween CXL. That is how some of the brands make tea core to simulate true vintage effect. That is not raw tanned hide like an originals off-the-shelf leather jacket. That is dyed brown then painted black so it can be made to look more like a well worn 40 y.o. off-the-shelf leather jacket in less than a year. Think RRL, only more extreme.

As to custom order, it makes a product more costly because it has to do with the economies of scale. In that, I have to say some of those Japanese brands do not have the economies of scale like Levi's or Red Wing. They don't even have the scale of White's or Wesco. RM probably sells less engineer boots than White's and that IMHO is the main reason why they cost more. Again please do not confuse a "custom" made to order jacket with bespoke as the patterns are there and it does not take more time to have a shorter sleeves or a D pocket from one pattern put on another pattern etc. The pattern itself is the costly part. The R&D costs. If it is truly a "one-off" jacket pattern made only once then never again, then that would be entirely different. In that, both Aero and RM are the same whether they develop the pattern at the beginning of a season or for the first customer, the cost is spread on subsequent sale of the jackets of that pattern. Take the denim for example, should a pair of Gustin cost more because of the "custom" part? Should a pair of Wesco cost more simply because one order double mid sole in stead of buying the stock one with single mid sole except for the additional costs of another piece of leather mid sole? Both pair have the same last, same material. So it is the customers' perception that he has options and that adds "value" to that customer. What if one does not need nor want options as the merchandise is already perfect in that person's eyes? IMHO, the value to a particular customer or even a large group of customers is still not "intrinsic value". So is it really arguable e.g. comparing worthiness when a Vanson would probably last as long as a Langlitz?

Re authenticity of a pattern. Should a maker not slim down their MA-1, N-2B, B-3, M-65 etc? Well, if it is not slimmed down, I would probably never be able to find one that fits me. Simply because I live in a part of the world that is not cold enough for me to wear three layers of clothing underneath the jacket as they were originally meant to be worn. On the coldest day where I live, I can only wear one layer of shirt or tee underneath a MA-1 while on the other hand I have to wear layers of clothing underneath a L-2 which is not meant to be worn that way. All those empty spaces around the body and in the sleeves would look absolutely ridiculous if I wear an "original" pattern MA-1. In fact I have a MASH clothing MA-1 which is a rather accurate pattern repro and I have to size down to xs but it is too short. Then I bought a RM MA-1 size small which fits me perfectly.

 

[Justhandguns]

Wow, I have checked the forum for two days and this thread ends up like this...... from a Visvim N3 to whether RMC is overpriced?

I disagree strongly. While I am sure that there are many one off buyers for RMC, there are also one off buyers for Aero and Vanson as well.
It's important to note that the people on this forum are generally into leather jackets above all else. People who buy Real McCoys jackets tend to be people that are into high quality/heritage or whatever you want to call it clothing such as @Benj , @Superfluous , and myself.
It's still absolutely hilarious to me that Aero is fully accepted here while RMC is not. Neither company is perfect, but both jackets cost more than they need to and both are high quality and use expensive, high quality components.
Why categorize RMC differently to Aero? That's absolutely ridiculous. The line of thinking in most cases when purchasing from either brand is very similar. However, there are qualities about RMC that make them more appealing to certain people such as myself. The stitching is neater and tighter in my experience and by a significant margin. I much prefer the leathers that RMC uses. Of course RMC is further along the point of diminishing returns than Aero is, but even Aero and ELC are very far along that point as well.
You can get a tough, well made leather jacket crafted in a first world country for around $300. Aero is already way past this point.

Well, as you can see on my profile, I am based on the other side of the pond. Just like you guys have easier access to Vanson/LW or whatever Thurston has on offer, we have Aero ELC Lewis just round the corners. The comparison I made using similar Roughwear A-2 from RMC and ELC are based on the UK street pricing, and in terms of craftsmanship, I doubt that the 'cheaper' ELC jacket is in anyway inferior to the RMC A-2.
As for the use of Shinki leathers, I second Blackadder's comments about the current hype of their hides. Shinki Hikaku (新喜皮革), should be referred as the company, similar to Horween, it is simply not a name of a single hide. Are they superior? I guess it is in the eye of the beholder.

I guess it is not just 'People who buy Real McCoys jackets' tend to be people that are into high quality/heritage', otherwise why are we even had this discussion in the first place? I myself certainly enjoy buying quality goods (even more so if they are at reasonable or even bargaining prices).

 

[Benj]

I think that the reason dude says that is, if you look at people that own RMC leather jackets etc, it’s together with an entire wardrobe or brands like that.

On the other hand, I’ve personally noticed that many people on this forum generally just focus on the jackets. So, pretty normal jeans, shirts, belts, etc.

For me myself, I basically take the obsessiveness that everyone here has about leather jackets and extend it to shirts, belts, boots, socks, sweats, etc

 

[nick123]

I love all of the (good) jackets, and all of you good people here, or even in Japan, regardless of preference or personal style. I don’t care for certain looks, while I like others. my tree may not grow on your soil; vice versa. But we are cut from the same tree, or are in the same orchard, connected somehow by our interest in leather jackets. Life is good, right now everyone hug. We are all on the right track here.

 

[Benj]

Yeah, I don’t knock anyone for preferring mainly very nice jackets. In fact I wish I just focused on jackets!!!

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I love all of the (good) jackets, and all of you good people here, or even in Japan, regardless of preference or personal style. I don’t care for certain looks, while I like others. my tree may not grow on your soil; vice versa. But we are cut from the same tree, or are in the same orchard, connected somehow by our interest in leather jackets. Life is good, right now everyone hug. We are all on the right track here.

This was what I was trying to get at in the first place. My issue was the sense that people who buy RMC are being discounted as people following hype or something rather than people who simply prefer a certain leather jacket.

 

[Superfluous]

The latest installment of the reoccurring TFL thread dedicated to disparaging patrons of RMC/Shinki as arrogant imbeciles who are duped into grossly overpaying for inferior jackets solely to achieve social status. Has it already been nine months since the last episode? I am disappointed at the flagrant hostilities and ad hominem posts that permeate and undermine this thread. Why do some here find it necessary to repeatedly denigrate, and label as inferior, the brands they do not patronize? I humbly suggest that the better approach is to freely exalt the brands that you favor, but show some respect for those who pursue a different path and not publicly assail them for doing so. Those who enjoy RMC/Shinki products should not be required to defend their preferences every nine months.

 

[Big J]

@Superfluous, who called who an 'imbecile'? I didn't see that post. I think you might be exaggerating a little.
People can spend as much money on whatever they like.
Telling the rest of us we don't understand because we're 'only into leather jackets' whilst they are 'people that tend to be into high quality/heritage' is such a poor turn of phrase that it's begging to be criticized.
However, I feel (although I may be incorrect) that dudewhattheheck and I may have come to an understanding on the matter, and there is no combativeness on my part.
In light of such, I can only speculate on your late arrival at this thread with such a large spoon.
I'm not interested in berating the brand. As always with certain brands in particular, it's the 'cooler than thou' snooty attitude that hyperventilates when questioned that raises my ire.

 

[navetsea]

The latest installment of the reoccurring TFL thread dedicated to disparaging patrons of RMC/Shinki as arrogant imbeciles who are duped into grossly overpaying for inferior jackets solely to achieve social status. Has it already been nine months since the last episode? I am disappointed at the flagrant hostilities and ad hominem posts that permeate and undermine this thread. Why do some here find it necessary to repeatedly denigrate, and label as inferior, the brands they do not patronize? I humbly suggest that the better approach is to freely exalt the brands that you favor, but show some respect for those who pursue a different path and not publicly assail them for doing so. Those who enjoy RMC/Shinki products should not be required to defend their preferences every nine months.

it was a giant plot to make you post

 

[bn1966]

I tried to diversify away from Jackets into other items of clothing in the belief I would be distracted & would ultimately have more $$$$ in the bank....unfortunately it didn't pan out like that...I now just have a bigger problem....

 

[red devil]

I tried to diversify away from Jackets into other items of clothing in the belief I would be distracted & would ultimately have more $$$$ in the bank....unfortunately it didn't pan out like that...I now just have a bigger problem....

What other clothing items are you now passionate about?

I imagine most people here would spend mainly on jackets and shoes / boots?

 

[GHT]

For reassuringly expensive, Michael Jackson's leather in the Thriller Video, sold for $1.8M at auction a couple of years ago. For lesser mortals you can have this Gucci Leather for a mere $18650. Click on the link and you will see why they justify the price.

 

[Justhandguns]

Now, to be fair for some brands, here is Eastman's latest offering. The pricing is meanwhile being discussed in another jacket forum.

They are asking £400 for this N4.

 

[red devil]

For reassuringly expensive, Michael Jackson's leather in the Thriller Video, sold for $1.8M at auction a couple of years ago. For lesser mortals you can have this Gucci Leather for a mere $18650. Click on the link and you will see why they justify the price.
View attachment 108270

Sorry... too cheap