Real McCoy's not expensive enough for you? Try this...

[Big J]

@Dudewhattheheck,

Interesting comment.
How many RMC products do you, Benj and Super collectively own?
What makes you sure that your attitude to RMC purchases and ownership is the same as Japanese customers?
How many Japanese have you surveyed regarding their attitudes towards owning RMC products?
Have you got a copy of the questionnaire I could look at please (my Japanese is pretty good)?
What was your sample size and how were people pre-selected?

I suspect (and forgive me if I'm wrong), that you have in fact conducted no survey of Japanese people at all, and are in fact projecting your own opinions, mixed with some of the sales pap store staff were able to give you in limited English when you were on holiday in Japan.

Sure, there must be some Japanese who are into the whole vintage look. I sometimes see even men wearing men's kimono that cost more than my wife's car out on a Sunday stroll.

But I suspect that the vast majority of customers are buying these things for one season (because some Japanese magazine or TV show said it was cool and featured a celeb in one) and then getting bored of the look and going on to the next thing, selling their jacket on an auction site or taking it to a 'recycle' shop.

Have a look at yahoo auctions japan. There are thousands of japanese flight jackets for sale at any one time, and they've all been worn for one season, so the seller wants the 'new' price.

As for Aero, well, they aren't off the rack like RMC, they are made to order, so...

 

[Sloan1874]

I think Big J hit it with his last line. The difference between RMc and Aero is that the former is a done deal: when they release their line for that season/year, that's yer lot. Aero's produces one-offs, so it's a rolling roster of something 'different'. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of RMc, but they're a different proposition, closer to Mister Freedom.

 

[El Marro]

https://www.realmccoyslondon.com/uk/native-blanket-jacket.html

I have this coming to me

hope it's warm enough

That is a beautiful jacket man! I sometimes drool over the jackets Pendleton has released using native patterns and colors, although I have yet to buy one. I'd love to see some photos of this one when it arrives.

 

[ProteinNerd]

When was RMC not accepted here? I just think being aimed at the Japanese market in terms of sizing they don’t fit a number of people here so aren’t on a lot of lists.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I've seen 'one offs' several times in this thread. I'm not familiar with that phrase. Do you guys mean 'one ofs' ??

 

[El Marro]

I've seen 'one offs' several times in this thread. I'm not familiar with that phrase. Do you guys mean 'one ofs' ??

They mean one offs HD, although in this case the meaning is practically the same. This expression is British in origin.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Oh, OK El Marro
Thanks

 

[Big J]

I've never noticed an 'anti' RMC feeling on TFL.
They don't make larger sizes, which means that a lot of western men can't wear them, so price and quality become a moot point.
I'm not especially convinced that they are worth the price, they don't seem to be qualitatively superior to BR.
IIRC the owner is that weird Japanese guy who bought the last flying Zero fighter from a US collection despite no one being qualified to train new pilots, the guy who wears an A-2 patched with kamikaze emblems, isn't he? That's kind of a nut-job thing to do here, like wearing a swastika around town. He also gets wheeled out on TV to 'comment' on the golden era whenever Japanese TV shows Indy Jones movies, wearing an A-2 and a fedora.
At best, a harmless fancy dress lover.
At worst, a shady warcrime denier.
I can't be bothered to look into it anymore than that, and I don't have to- I have to choose other brands based on size anyway.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

@Dudewhattheheck,

Interesting comment.
How many RMC products do you, Benj and Super collectively own?
What makes you sure that your attitude to RMC purchases and ownership is the same as Japanese customers?
How many Japanese have you surveyed regarding their attitudes towards owning RMC products?
Have you got a copy of the questionnaire I could look at please (my Japanese is pretty good)?
What was your sample size and how were people pre-selected?

I suspect (and forgive me if I'm wrong), that you have in fact conducted no survey of Japanese people at all, and are in fact projecting your own opinions, mixed with some of the sales pap store staff were able to give you in limited English when you were on holiday in Japan.

Sure, there must be some Japanese who are into the whole vintage look. I sometimes see even men wearing men's kimono that cost more than my wife's car out on a Sunday stroll.

But I suspect that the vast majority of customers are buying these things for one season (because some Japanese magazine or TV show said it was cool and featured a celeb in one) and then getting bored of the look and going on to the next thing, selling their jacket on an auction site or taking it to a 'recycle' shop.

Have a look at yahoo auctions japan. There are thousands of japanese flight jackets for sale at any one time, and they've all been worn for one season, so the seller wants the 'new' price.

As for Aero, well, they aren't off the rack like RMC, they are made to order, so...

You are in fact incorrect. I have never spoken to anyone from RMC in any location other than to point to which shirts my brother wanted to try on.

I said myself that I am sure there are many 'one off' type customers of RMC. This means that I am conceding that many of the Japanese buyers are exactly as stated previously.

I am talking about the people that I know that have purchased RMC. Go look at denimbro and you'll see what I mean.

These are not merely my own opinions and there is no 'sales pap'. This has been my experience based on the jackets I have handled and the people who own RMC that I have personally talked to.

And yes, there is definitely a general anti-RMC and pro-Aero feel on this forum compared to other forums that discuss leather jackets.

 

[Benj]

Sure, there must be some Japanese who are into the whole vintage look. I sometimes see even men wearing men's kimono that cost more than my wife's car out on a Sunday stroll.

But I suspect that the vast majority of customers are buying these things for one season (because some Japanese magazine or TV show said it was cool and featured a celeb in one) and then getting bored of the look and going on to the next thing, selling their jacket on an auction site or taking it to a 'recycle' shop.

Forgive me...

What makes you sure that your attitude to RMC purchases and ownership is the same as Japanese customers?
How many Japanese have you surveyed regarding their attitudes towards owning RMC products?
Have you got a copy of the questionnaire I could look at please (although my Japanese is not quite so good)?
What was your sample size and how were people pre-selected?

I suspect (and forgive me if I'm wrong), that you have in fact conducted no survey of Japanese people at all, and are in fact projecting your own opinions.

I've never noticed an 'anti' RMC feeling on TFL.
IIRC the owner is that weird Japanese guy who bought the last flying Zero fighter from a US collection despite no one being qualified to train new pilots, the guy who wears an A-2 patched with kamikaze emblems, isn't he? That's kind of a nut-job thing to do here, like wearing a swastika around town. He also gets wheeled out on TV to 'comment' on the golden era whenever Japanese TV shows Indy Jones movies, wearing an A-2 and a fedora.
At best, a harmless fancy dress lover.
At worst, a shady warcrime denier.
I can't be bothered to look into it anymore than that, and I don't have to- I have to choose other brands based on size anyway.

I think that when @dudewuttheheck refers to "anti-rmc" feelings he's referring to the inevitable comments on price and how it isn't justifiable. You almost never see these comments on Aero products, which are also extremely expensive, and you almost always see these comments somewhere in a thread that mentions RMC.

I also believe that you do not have the right guy in your head. I think you are thinking of Okamoto, the owner of Toys McCoy. Here is the owner of the Real McCoy's, Hitoshi Tsujimoto, and I, at this year's Inspiration in Los Angeles.

 

[Big J]

@dudewhattheheck, you said;
"People who buy RMC tend to be people who are into high quality and heritage..such as...myself" whilst the rest of us are merely into "leather jackets".
Ok, so how many do you own? One?
Or do you have many? I'm genuinely asking.

The fact that RMC only makes jackets for small guys kind of indicates that their target demographic isn't the majority of non-Japanese men.

They don't want my custom, why should I cut them some slack for offering off-the-peg jackets at twice the price of an Aero?

I know you've read my comments about authentic jacket lengths and quality (and all the trouble that's got me) so I'm very interested in what makes you a connoisseur of high-quality and heritage clothing (urghh, hate that expression), whilst I'm presumably not? It's quite a claim to make for yourself.

Remember, I've seen the photo of you with the drainpipe shiny suit pants

I suspect that you're attracted to these brands for the exclusivity and high price point; it makes you feel good. That's fine if so, it's natural to do things that make you feel good.

And no, I shall not go to denimbro for information about leather jackets. Sounds like a 'niche' pick-up site.

@Benj,
Hello. How many RMC jackets do you own?

But it does seem that I was wrong about RMC's owner. It's that other guy. I can admit when I'm wrong.

Speaking of size, I don't imagine that Japanese guy in the photo is a giant who started a company making jackets too small for him to wear, so I'm guessing you're about a size 36 or so. So you can wear the jackets. That's fine. Good for you! Enjoy! I can't. I'm a size 48. Issue A-2s also came in size 48. RMC jackets don't. Big black mark against them right there in my book.

Surveys? I'm afraid I have none. I've only lived here for 20 years and had but a couple of hundred random conversations with Japanese jacket owners in coffee shops and stuff. But that is a lot of anecdotal evidence.

I'm honestly not trying to pick fights with anyone. RMC jackets are way more expensive than the competition, and not made to order. And they only make small sizes, so naturally they won't get a lot of love amongst westerners, I think (but hey, maybe I'm wrong about that too. Could be).

As I've said about other brands, 'over-built' jackets are IMHO less accurate reproductions. There was a war on. Jackets were made as quickly as possible, to the lowest possible standards, with whatever acceptable materials, by people with the lowest possible training hours. That's the ultimate goal of the best reproduction, surely?

'Good enough for government work'.

Better than that is fantasy, is it not?

(Again, please don't read this with any malice or ill-intent, I'm merely discussing ideas).

 

[Sloan1874]

RMC products are more expensive than Aero, by more than 100 per cent in many cases. Because of this, I tend to hunt eBay looking for used bargains than buy first hand. I think it's only natural that a forum would tend to favour brands that are within the reach of a greater number of people, but again I think there's an apple and oranges comparison being made here - Aero are doing bespoke, RMC are off-the-peg. People are generally going to have more to chat about when it comes to something that was made to their specifications, whether it's a leather jacket, a suit or whatever, so I don't think there's anything partiularly 'anti-RMC' going on, their stuff, which I must reiterate that I love, is just less 'comment-worthy'.

 

[ProteinNerd]

I think that when @dudewuttheheck refers to "anti-rmc" feelings he's referring to the inevitable comments on price and how it isn't justifiable. You almost never see these comments on Aero products, which are also extremely expensive, and you almost always see these comments somewhere in a thread that mentions RMC.

Lets be fair though, an off the rack RMC jacket is about US$800 more than a custom Aero....thats a pretty significant difference in price, its kinda creeping up to almost double the price...to merely say they are both "expensive" and imply they are similarly priced isn't really an accurate representation of the situation.

 

[Big J]

I think I recall Superfluous commenting once about his compulsive behavior to search out something 'more' all the time (hence his handle), cars, clothes, that sort of thing.
I wouldn't knock that.
I do think that some people want more exclusivity, something more 'special', and longer wait times, higher prices, over-building and exotic materials appeal to that instinct.

I'm only concerned with accuracy. I think it's the difference between a reproduction and a costume. If other people aren't, that's perfectly fine, but we will not be in agreement about how 'good' something is.

With modern technology we could make a banging new Stonehenge, with perfectly smooth flat stones and square corners and all, but I don't think anyone would say it has an authentic feel.

 

[red devil]

Interesting thread, I have been twice to the RMC store in Harajuku / Shibuya with a very serious intent to buy:
- The first time, I ended up with a Tenjin works JW02. It was the only place that had a jacket that fit me well at the time. I tried on a sample which fit like a glove, just needing longer sleeves which is not a problem, since all their products are made to order. @Big J they will make your size if you ever want it. They use veg-tanned cowhide and not shinki which can be a let down to some.
- The second time, I had lost some weight, and thought that I would be successful and ended up.... with the little wing from freewheelers. Again the fit of that jacket was better than anything I tried at RMC. Freewheelers' fit varies widely by jacket, so there is a chance of finding a correct fit as long as you're not beyond a certain size
The problem with RMC in both occasions was the fit, I spent a lot of time at the shop trying sizes 42 and 44, even 40... but nothing fit well. Same problem with Flathead, the fit just does not work.
So if you're lucky enough to be able to wear an RMC jacket well, than it is definitely a very good brand, Flathead is very similar in this aspect.

 

[Monitor]

refers to "anti-rmc" feelings he's referring to the inevitable comments on price and how it isn't justifiable.

lol I think that's just me.

But I still don't get it - They make nice jackets, well constructed and all but compared to some other brands, the leather they use is thin, sometimes flimsy thin and they're all OTR, which is why I don't get the price. I'd rank them at Schott price range but not two freaking grands.

I'm not anti-RMC, I'm anti-senseless pricing. It had become a standard for the Japanese brand to be asking several thousand dollars for the same old designs they constantly copy off each other all the time. They're all OTR, all the same old Shinki and all just old.

But then again, I often see this sorta thing, where people are convinced that everything coming out of Japan is somehow magically superior. Same with people who are convinced that anything that costs more is also better.

 

[Doctor Damage]

I'm not anti-RMC, I'm anti-senseless pricing. It had become a standard for the Japanese brand to be asking several thousand dollars for the same old designs they constantly copy off each other all the time. They're all OTR, all the same old Shinki and all just old. But then again, I often see this sorta thing, where people are convinced that everything coming out of Japan is somehow magically superior. Same with people who are convinced that anything that costs more is also better.

There's a bunch of people who think that anything made in the USA is better, too. Or handmade is always better. One problem is that even the experts around here often don't seem to know what they're talking about; most people come to conclusions then look for evidence to support their conclusion, which is ass-backwards. More broadly, there is a snob factor involved, what I mean is that buying expensive stuff from the supposedly best companies allows you to look down at the less-informed or less-clever people who shop at the mall or whatever. That shows up in this forum, too. The people who buy a $2000 jacket then laugh at someone wearing a $100 mall jacket, but then almost never wear their $2000 jacket so it never wears in or weathers and ends up looking like a stiff plastic thing like a mall jacket. Another thing is that some people make too much money. Whenever I look at pricing for things I always think, "item A is twice as expensive as item B, but is it twice as good?" If not, then I'm not paying twice as good. It's commonly understood (or maybe not) that as price goes up there is a diminishing return since quality can't go up at the same rate.

 

[Mich486]

Many of these heritage brands thrive on people’s idea that to be well dressed in a casual environment you need to wear very expensive workwear. For example, jeans can’t be Levi’s... they have to be 20oz thick from that unknown Japanese mill. What is funny is that then people buy these brands with the idea that these days that’s the only way they have to achieve the look you could achieve in the past with cheapo stuff (like Levi’s). In my personal experience I find that is not true at all (especially with denim).





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Big J]

Are dudewhattheheck and Benj the same person?
Same build.
Same hair.
Same jacket.
Doppelgängers found at last!
Awesome! You guys could save a fortune by sharing your wardrobes!

 

[Benj]

haha... @dudewuttheheck does have some good stuff. Actually, we live about 30 mins away from each other so when we hangout we always take a look at any new stuff we've got. For the record, I have two RMC jackets (both 40) and sold a J-100 a while back.

@dudewhattheheck, you said;
"The fact that RMC only makes jackets for small guys kind of indicates that their target demographic isn't the majority of non-Japanese men.

They don't want my custom, why should I cut them some slack for offering off-the-peg jackets at twice the price of an Aero?

I suspect that you're attracted to these brands for the exclusivity and high price point; it makes you feel good. That's fine if so, it's natural to do things that make you feel good.

@Benj,
Hello. How many RMC jackets do you own?

Speaking of size, I don't imagine that Japanese guy in the photo is a giant who started a company making jackets too small for him to wear, so I'm guessing you're about a size 36 or so. So you can wear the jackets. That's fine. Good for you! Enjoy! I can't. I'm a size 48. Issue A-2s also came in size 48. RMC jackets don't. Big black mark against them right there in my book.

Surveys? I'm afraid I have none. I've only lived here for 20 years and had but a couple of hundred random conversations with Japanese jacket owners in coffee shops and stuff. But that is a lot of anecdotal evidence.

I'm honestly not trying to pick fights with anyone. RMC jackets are way more expensive than the competition, and not made to order. And they only make small sizes, so naturally they won't get a lot of love amongst westerners, I think (but hey, maybe I'm wrong about that too. Could be).

As I've said about other brands, 'over-built' jackets are IMHO less accurate reproductions. There was a war on. Jackets were made as quickly as possible, to the lowest possible standards, with whatever acceptable materials, by people with the lowest possible training hours. That's the ultimate goal of the best reproduction, surely?

'Good enough for government work'.

Better than that is fantasy, is it not?

(Again, please don't read this with any malice or ill-intent, I'm merely discussing ideas).

Just quoting some of the stuff I wanted to respond to... I mentioned the survey because I thought it was ridiculous that you posted that whole schpiel. According to that, anecdotal evidence isn't good enough!

Furthermore, I feel like you're mainly salty about the fact that they only make jackets for "small guys" (even though you're a 48??) and you want to pick on them for the price because of that. I'm really NOT a small guy. I'm 5'10" 180 lbs... and I'm wearing a size 40 jacket there. Hitoshi Tsujimoto is in fact a giant. I also think it's kind of funny he probably does't fit into his own brand's clothing. So, I really disagree that Real McCoy's only makes jackets for small Japanese guys, which is a common belief.


I also think that it's kind of condescending to assume that @dudewuttheheck (or myself) are attracted to RMC etc because of the "exclusivity and high price point". Number one, both @dudewuttheheck wear these things in places where no one knows how nice these jackets are, it's purely for our own personal enjoyment. Furthermore, do you think that people who are mainly attracted to Aero jackets are into it because of their exclusivity and high price point, which makes them feel good?

I agree with your argument that over-built jackets are less accurate than reproductions. It's why I prefer Real McCoy's and other Japanese brands... I really don't give a shit at all about the accuracy of the jacket. It just so happens that I prefer old style jackets, but I would take a brand new Real McCoy's or Flat Head over a deadstock 50's jacket any day of the week.

Lets be fair though, an off the rack RMC jacket is about US$800 more than a custom Aero....thats a pretty significant difference in price, its kinda creeping up to almost double the price...to merely say they are both "expensive" and imply they are similarly priced isn't really an accurate representation of the situation.

Even if they are double the price, the prices are both so astronomical that I really do believe they should just be classified as "expensive" and that's it, no tiers. If you saw someone talking about a $10,000 jacket, and another person balking at the price because they prefer their $5,000 jacket, would you really not balk at that position? It's the same thing for 99% of the population.

But I still don't get it - They make nice jackets, well constructed and all but compared to some other brands, the leather they use is thin, sometimes flimsy thin and they're all OTR, which is why I don't get the price. I'd rank them at Schott price range but not two freaking grands.

They're all OTR, all the same old Shinki and all just old.

Monitor, have you seen a RMC or Flat Head jacket in person? It just honestly blows my mind that you'd call the leather thin and flimsy and comparative to schott. I can almost promise you that, unless you're looking for literal battle armor and accept nothing less than Lost Worlds thickness and stiffness, Real McCoy's and Flat Head leather is really not thin and flimsy. It's really really great. I would love to show you my jacket in person. Do you think Schott as good as Aero or Goodwear?