Real McCoy's are closing down..?

[Smithy]

Sad news and always a loss for buyers when an option ceases to exist.

I know they copped it pretty bad with the 2011 Chch earthquake which wouldn't have helped matters.

I can see 2nd hand prices for their jackets headed skywards now.

 

[HPA Rep]

Well I know Gary has invested time and money in finding a tannery to create this type of leather and they do look good generally. I did buy a couple of house B3 's and Anj4's, a RW B3 and B6,a Perry B3 and an Irvin. So I know them well and they cost me quite a sum so it was a wrench to sell them at a loss but they are just uncomfortable to wear and the leather folds more like a carpet than nappa. The fleece also tends to be very dead looking as it has little lustre.The B'3 I have had have all suffered from a thick stiff cuff seam that digs into the wrists because of the very stiff leather. I have not had this issue with the old jackets that are much more comfortable to wear and with some wear look better to me than the modern jackets.
So those are my reasons and sadly Eastman is no longer able to supply the type of jackets I like. Stuart Clurman at Lost Worlds has bent to customer pressure so no longer sells the very stiff sheepskins he used to. Aero have some beautiful skins now also.
I still think Eastman is a top company but just wish we had some more choice !

Thank you, John, for the detailed reply. I certainly know you spent a great deal of money on jackets and I can fully appreciate the financial loss in electing to sell them. I do know what you mean about the inside seam on the B-3 cuffs sometimes being stiff, but of those I own (and yours may have been different), this did work itself out over time. Today I tried on a Rough Wear B-3 in my size and this seam stiffness was more pronounced than most others, yet after a short while I no longer noticed it; if I had worn it for days on end, maybe I'd feel differently. I can only recall one customer complaining since this hide changed to the stiffer type, so we sent the B-3 to Eastman and they did something, then back it went to the customer and he was thereafter happy. It's also possible that when Gary narrowed the cuff diameter a few years back, which was right about the time the new skins were introduced, the combination of factors made this seam issue on cuffs more problematic for some, as even some of the older jackets have a stiff(er) cuff seam but the cuffs were not as narrow as they are now.

The older skins you mention were softer but also a bit too spongy, so the authenticity for me is with the new skins, which I suppose is Gary's thinking, as well. The SFAD B-3 seems to not have the pronounced stiffness on this seam, which may be the different sheepskin type employed and/or the lack of the lacquer coating and dye.

Regarding the luster on wool, I can't honestly see what you're speaking about vs. the older jackets. There is no shortage of older sheepskin jackets around here and not only is the overall luster no different to my eyes, but some of the wool from around 1993-94 was quite curly and, for my taste, not all that nice compared to skins employed for the last decade or more.

I certainly respect how you feel and can only believe that if Gary received enough complaints, he'd make the hides less stiff just as you say Lost Worlds did; no businessman would want to lose a significant share of their market. So, to all who don't care for the new skins, if you're in N. America, send us your e-mails, and if you're in the EU, e-mail Eastman Leather; that's how change will happen.

Thank you, once again, John.

 

[John Lever]

Thanks Charles. I want to add that Gary has been innovative over the years and has taken brave steps with the Perry B3 and the SFAD so he should given credit for it. Regarding sponginess or elasticity of the older skins, (which is what every other major repro maker uses) it is this very quality that makes the A1 such a winner to wear.On the subject of lustre which gives life to colour, the SFAD wool is soft prior to being Time Worn. I have a sample here about 12 inches square that I asked for when I ordered my jacket. The wool is soft and shiny, very similar to merino used by RMNZ. After treatment it looses it's life and becomes dull and cotton wool like.
Any way I don't want to keep knocking Gary like this. It was part of the reason why the possible loss of RMNZ will be such a loss as less choice is a bad thing.

 

[havocpaul]

To add my two-pence worth, I am in agreement with John (and it seems others too) in that the early (we're talking late 1980's/early 90's) Eastman wool, in particular the merino wool, on the B-3, RAF, and USN shearling jackets was much nicer and more authentic than the recent and current hides. The RAF jacket seems to have developed a really dark shade that really isn't how the majority of WW2 Irvins were. It appears that the SFAD uses merino wool so it can still be sourced but perhaps not in the quantity or regularity as before so perhaps cannot be offered across the range. I do agree that Gary has been bold in offering the Perry and SFAD B-3's as John said.

 

[John Lever]

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[URL=http://s13.photobucket.com/user/johnlever/media/Few%20m445/IMG_0049_edited-1.jpg.html]

 

[HPA Rep]

Absolutely beautiful jackets, John! These are all merino examples, right? And they are RMNZ, too, right?

Personally, the topmost B-3 just looks too new and repro-like for my taste, and it's darker than any vintage jacket I've ever see on the exterior and trim leather, but that's why they make more than one flavor of ice cream.

 

[John Lever]

Here's a couple of close up's



It's a common mistake to forget that all old things were once new

 

[Brettafett]

I actually had the opportunity to pop in to RMNZ near the end of last year. Paddy showed me around and we spoke about developments (or the lack thereof) and the earthquake. Some incredible jackets. I was very tempted, but only what was on hand was available and there was nothing in my size. I almost 'begged' her to make me a jacket, but there was no way. Everything was slated for Japan.
Guys, I was walking through this large room with all sorts of jacket hanging in two tiers, flight jackets, civilian designs. Tried on a few... Kudos to Paddy's patience. At some point my mind switched off and just revelled in that new leather aroma.
Anyway, its a shame, esp for those folks who work there. It was pretty scary when the quake hit. Paddy was telling me about this rolling wave of concrete, like everything was just liquid... I hope it works out for them. Christchurch is a lovely city, but still reeling from the quake.

 

[HPA Rep]

Here's a couple of close up's
It's a common mistake to forget that all old things were once new

Which jacket is this John, or is it more than one? It looks much better closeup; the grain is extremely impressive and authentic, as is the wool. If the exterior color is as dark as it appears here, that strikes me as way too dark, much as I have seen on Buzz Rickson's sheepskin jackets.

I am more than familiar with the fact that everything starts out as new, John; I didn't fall off the turnip wagon yesterday. I happen to think Eastman's more recent efforts with TimeWear are looking extremely good at being representative of jackets with some "use" on them. Having said that, if I have time this year, I want to play with either an Eastman Rough Wear or Perry B-3 that has no TimeWear and craft my own. I did this many, many years ago with HPA's limited-edition Rough Wear 1401-P A-2 and the results were spooky. If I do take on this sheepskin project, I'll then be able to compare this effort to what Eastman is doing and see if it can be affected without reducing the luster to the wool you so dislike and which I understand. Though the wool would often fade from UV exposure and dirt and dust, causing loss of luster, it's certainly possible to have a naturally worn-in jacket that retains most or all of its wool luster, which would depend on several variables being present or not.

 

[John Lever]

The closeups are of my RW B3 the first jacket photographed. I prefer my jackets like my jeans, honest solid materials of the highest quality,not stonewashed.

 

[AdeeC]

I guess Eastman are selling these time worn(pre digested) jackets because there is a market for them. For many, modern living means everything has to happen easily, quickly and with less effort. A shortcut is the new quality.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Finding short cuts has always been a very human response to just about everything we do and has driven most of our innovation, why should jackets be any different?

 

[mendelboaz]

Because part of the fun of wearing a leather jacket is wearing it for years on end and bonding with it, seeing how the jacket forms scars and creases that were formed during all those years you wore it. The fact that you got a new, stiff and shiny jacket and turned it into a badass looking piece of clothing that you made yours by wearing it for years and the jacket is still going to be here for years and years..

Buying a predistressed jacket is phoney and is like adopting a teenager who's already been through a lot; it'll never truly be yours.

 

[I would go out tonight]

I have begun to wonder recently if perhaps the market is reaching saturation and we may start to see some manufacturers squeezed out. Before starting to lurk around here, a number of years ago, I had no idea there were so many manufacturers. However, there are even more now and the internet has raised the awareness for anyone interested. I have no understanding of the repro market but would be interested to hear what those who do think.

 

[John Lever]

You could be right. Demand for the perfect repro and material costs have driven prices way past what most would consider to be the normal price for a leather jacket. I understand that currency issues were causing 40 % more costs for RMNZ.
It's surprising that the Chinese haven't started producing repros, or that existing companies haven't moved there yet.

 

[Big J]

You could be right. Demand for the perfect repro and material costs have driven prices way past what most would consider to be the normal price for a leather jacket. I understand that currency issues were causing 40 % more costs for RMNZ.
It's surprising that the Chinese haven't started producing repros, or that existing companies haven't moved there yet.

John, I think that's where it's at, currency issues making an expensive product even more expensive/less profitable. It's swings and roundabouts, I'm sure other manufacturers will be happy to pick up the slack, making them stronger and more secure in the future I suppose.
How big is the market for Chinese repros? I don't think US repro flight jackets ring any particular bells for them beyond the Flying Tigers. Aero tried some A-2's made of goat in India, didn't they? I think that the mall jacket customer expectations can be met by Chinese labor costs and expertise, but for the money I'm prepared to spend on a nice repro, I want materials and manufacturing expertise I can rely on when the product arrives in the post.

 

[AdeeC]

All well to sneer at Chinese made but there are a lot of seriously good textile and clothing workers there.
Many skills being forgotten in the West are in over supply there. Give them good materials and guidance, they will produce the best.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Because part of the fun of wearing a leather jacket is wearing it for years on end and bonding with it, seeing how the jacket forms scars and creases that were formed during all those years you wore it. The fact that you got a new, stiff and shiny jacket and turned it into a badass looking piece of clothing that you made yours by wearing it for years and the jacket is still going to be here for years and years..

Buying a predistressed jacket is phoney and is like adopting a teenager who's already been through a lot; it'll never truly be yours.

Romantically and earnestly expressed MB. Not sure the teenager metaphor works very well but I think I know what you're trying to say.

Nevertheless I've been buying/selling and wearing leather for 35 years. I've owned 40-50 jackets in total, maybe more. I've worn everything from 4oz steer to the thinnest calf. I'm happy to stick jackets in the washer to break them in. These days I hate breaking them in myself and I hate the look of a new jacket. I wouldn't buy pre-distressed myself (I have a washing machine) but totally understand why someone would want the things pre-worn. I don't think we need label people as phoney. It's simply a segment of the market many here might avoid. Doesn't make it wrong.

 

[Big J]

All well to sneer at Chinese made but there are a lot of seriously good textile and clothing workers there.
Many skills being forgotten in the West are in over supply there. Give them good materials and guidance, they will produce the best.

I'm not sneering. Look at the quality control problems that some re-enactment repro companies have had with products massed produced in China. I remember ATF had a shipment of boots that had to be returned because the factory stored the leather next to a heater. Yes, China is capable of staffing factories that mass produce consumer products, and they can do this well when there is a western or Japanese management team overseeing the entire production line and the supply chain, on the ground.
But we're not talking about mass produced plastic sneakers, or production line electronic components, we're talking about artisan jackets, made to order, by hand.
It's like asking why Savile Row hasn't got up en masse and moved to Beijing (except that I can see Chinese nouveau riche wearing suits, but not WW2 US flight jackets).
People like John Chapman, or Ken at Aero can get it right because they have a love of the product, that has seen them collect (and take apart!) many original examples. Can you really see a Chinese enthusiast buying up hundreds of original jackets, taking them apart, and then creating faithful patterns in order to make high-end reproductions? Maybe they will, but there are easier ways of making money in China, and I don't see any of the established makers moving production to China- the language barrier, and corruption make it less attractive, and possibly more expensive.
I can't see that there is a market for it in China beyond the wealthy showing off that they can afford these jackets as expensive western goodies, like Italian sports cars.

 

[John Lever]

I think a western company could very easily set up a company in the far east and make very high quality goods. The made in Scotland, England, New Zealand, and USA would be missing though. Isn't some Buzz Rickson's stuff made in China ? Look how good their product a are.