Re-blocking to Long Oval.

[Art Fawcett]

I'm sure that there is much more to all of this than I myself understand Nik and I would not discount your theory. I think it has some merit as do the points that Ole is making also. My perspective is from a purely practical, day to day experience in trying to accommodate my clients and from actually working with the hats. With Nyah's issue, I would simply use the rounding jack, then, like the dimensional brim on the Indy hat, trim as needed to even out the brim ( which was his original theory), then be done with it never giving it a second thought. I wouldn't think to change the tooling when it rarely becomes an issue in the first place. It's all good food for thought though and fun to discuss.

 

[TheDane]

Yup, it's all about learning (= living)

I brought the "puzzle" along to my local Baresso (coffee chain like Starbucks). A cookie and two double espressos supplied me with a new angle: Was the rounding jack widely in use in 20th Century hat factories?

I don't remember pictures from finishing lines, where rounding jacks lay spread out on the tables. I have seen several pictures of machines like the one on this rather recent picture from Borsalino:



The rounding jack, as we know it, is a great tool for a small custom hatter business, but is it at all suited for factory work? Let's say, rounding jacks were used in factories back in the first half of the 20th Century - would they then be adjustable? Probably not.

If you have to tighten 1.000 3/4" nuts, you would of course choose a fixed wrench - not an adjustable. Picking up and laying down an adjustable tool hundreds of times will eventually throw it "out of tune".

Would a clever production manager at Stetson ask his workers to check and tighten the rounding jack, everytime it was used? No, he would order fixed jacks in the widths, used in the production line. If you are finishing batches of hundreds of hats with the same brim width, that would be the clever tool to use. Fewer errors - cheaper tools - and more hats through the line in the same time.

Why don't we see fixed jacks like that? Is that because, the rounding jack mainly was a tool for small scale operations, and the factories used machines? Then what is the reason for variations in brim width, Josh and Nik experience?

I just checked a couple of my vintage hats. On two of them, there was no significant difference between "width" and "length" - two were longer (one of them, only in the front) - one was wider [huh]

 

[Art Fawcett]

I stand corrected Ole, I didn't realize we had narrowed it down to "factories". I thought we were just answering Nyah's question. Yes, they DO use brim cutting machines and no they DON"T have piles of rounding jacks laying about tables. I give up, you win.

 

[TheDane]

- and I thought, we were trying to get wiser in a friendly tone of voice. I was not trying to be a pain in your neck, Sir. I deeply apologize

 

[T Jones]

- and I thought, we were trying to get wiser in a friendly tone of voice. I was not trying to be a pain in your neck, Sir. I deeply apologize

No need to apologize Ole. Being a Long Oval myself I definitely appreciate the information you're sharing.

 

[job]

+1

 

[bowlerman]

Fascinating. This is why, at least to us, hatting is truly an art (no pun intended here). It also explains my confusion regarding dimensional brims; I've never been able to figure out how they're longer in the front and back, and shorter on the sides. Turns out they're not!

I might add that I have seen some factory hats where, in my perception, a long oval does * seem* to have a larger circumference than a regular oval. Maybe I should be looking a partial size smaller and then stretching it to my long oval head?

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

 

[John Galt]

This is an interesting conversation. I think it depends on the tool you use.

I recently used this rounding jack to cut a long oval brim with a uniform width on the sides, front & back.

As you can see, the flatter profile and flexible wings allow a uniform width cut despite the flatter side of the long oval block.

Bowlerman, I'm not sure I understand your comment. Dimensional brims do have different brim widths on the front and sides.

A Homburg, as Art noted, is cut using a rounding jack designed to cut the sides wider, like this:

Even when dialed all the way back, using a tool like this causes the sides of a long oval hat (in particular but also others) to be a bit wider.

Olė's illustration was spot on. You can see here what I'm talking about, on the long oval block.

A ROTLA hat has a _shorter_ width at the sides - the reverse of a Homburg. That's why the dimensional brim cutter above doesn't work for cutting _that_ kind of dimensional brim, and it's finished by hand (unless there some other trick I don't yet know).

BUT, both the Homburg and the ROTLA have "dimensional" brims by definition, because the front/sides _do_ vary in brim width on both types of hats.

My $.02

I hope this helps.

 

[T Jones]

This is an interesting conversation. I think it depends on the tool you use.

I recently used this rounding jack to cut a long oval brim with a uniform width on the sides, front & back.

As you can see, the flatter profile and flexible wings allow a uniform width cut despite the flatter side of the long oval block.

Bowlerman, I'm not sure I understand your comment. Dimensional brims do have different brim widths on the front and sides.

A Homburg, as Art noted, is cut using a rounding jack designed to cut the sides wider, like this:

Even when dialed all the way back, using a tool like this causes the sides of a long oval hat (in particular but also others) to be a bit wider.

Olė's illustration was spot on. You can see here what I'm talking about, on the long oval block.

A ROTLA hat has a _shorter_ width at the sides - the reverse of a Homburg. That's why the dimensional brim cutter above doesn't work for cutting _that_ kind of dimensional brim, and it's finished by hand (unless there some other trick I don't yet know).

BUT, both the Homburg and the ROTLA have "dimensional" brims by definition, because the front/sides _do_ vary in brim width on both types of hats.

My $.02

I hope this helps.

Was that the Long Oval brim on my hat you were cutting in the picture? That illustrates it very well John. I see where you have it set, (cutting width), and how it keeps the same width all around a Long Oval hat. Looks like that little discussion has been put to rest.

 

[bowlerman]

+1. JG, that is very illustrative.

To clarify my comment (maybe?) I always thought dimensional brims were longer in front/back, and shorter on the sides, and it never made sense to me, but this conversation states that they're longer on the sides, shorter in front/back.

I haven't given it that much thought, other than having wondered, opposite of T Jones, whether uniform brims give the impression of being too wide on a long oval head, as viewed directly from the front. I just woke up. Is this making any sense?

 

[TheDane]

I always thought dimensional brims were longer in front/back, and shorter on the sides, and it never made sense to me, but this conversation states that they're longer on the sides, shorter in front/back.

You were in a way correct. Dimensional brims on outback/Indy hats have a wider brim front and back. Homburgs and many stiff hats have a wider brim in the sides.

 

[John Galt]

Yes, Terry it was your hat in the photos.

I don't know where you can buy one like this nowadays. It actually looks easier to make than the other type, but it's the first I've seen like this.

I bought it with several other rounding jacks when I bought all of the hat making tools from the TopHatters shop.

Ted & Marie Lee had been in business 65 years and had an extensive collection of tools (that I am very pleased to add to my existing collection), so this could be a somewhat older rounding jack.

Ted seemed to be a mechanical genius and the cutting head of this tool appears to have been poured in aluminum. It is possible he built or modified it, but I'm thinking it is relatively modern, and a purchase - probably it was a Hatters Supply Co. purchase.

I will note that Oliver (Hatter4) has an extensive collection of rounding jacks, including some with very wide edges and flatter profiles than most.

The dimensional brim cutter in the photo I posted actually has the flattest profile of several that I own. The front/side variance would be even greater with a more rounded profile.

[Edit - Olė, it can be harder to use a flatter profiled rounding jack than a standard rounding jack because the flatter tend to slip more, resulting in cutting errors.]

 

[John Galt]

You were in a way correct. Dimensional brims on outback/Indy hats have a wider brim front and back. Homburgs and many stiff hats have a wider brim in the sides.

+1

Olė said this more clearly than I did, but we are saying the same thing.

 

[T Jones]

+1. JG, that is very illustrative.



I haven't given it that much thought, other than having wondered, opposite of T Jones, whether uniform brims give the impression of being too wide on a long oval head, as viewed directly from the front. I just woke up. Is this making any sense?

I haven't noticed that in my case. I have a few LO hats, and when viewed from the front, or from any other angle, the brims look uniform all the way around, (if I'm understanding you correctly). I would image that because a Rounding Jack which cuts LO brims makes them uniform all the way around following the contours of the crown. If that makes sense.

 

[humanshoes]

This was my first hat made on my hand made long oval block. I used the brim cutter that I made and, sure enough, the brim turned out 1/8" wider on the sides than the front, however, when I flanged it and left just a little bit of curl on the sides, per the customer's request, the overall appearance was quite uniform. That being said, and not to take anything away from the general hat buying public, it would probably be a cold, hatless day in hell before anyone except an anal retentive perfectionist like myself would ever notice an 1/8" difference on the brim width. In my humble opinion, most people just wear the hats they like, not measure them.

 

[tonyb]

I'd bet real money you are right, 'shoes.

 

[T Jones]

I think John Galt already demonstrated that a uniform cut on a Long Oval brim can be achieved, with the right Rounding Jack.

This Rounding Jack will give a uniform brim cut on a Long Oval...

Something like this one will leave the sides a little longer....

 

[humanshoes]

No question about it, T Jones. No problem getting a uniform brim cut on a long oval blocked hat. I actually opened up the arc on my rounding jack after that first attempt and that solved a problem that most people wouldn't even know was a problem, but hey, I knew it was there and it bothered me.

 

[T Jones]

No question about it, T Jones. No problem getting a uniform brim cut on a long oval blocked hat. I actually opened up the arc on my rounding jack after that first attempt and that solved a problem that most people wouldn't even know was a problem, but hey, I knew it was there and it bothered me.

...the hat looks really good btw.

 

[humanshoes]

Thanks!