Questions About the United States Navy Peacoat

[sfflyfish]

Being a stickler for detail I gotta ask; Do you know there's a special method for sewing on the button? It is sewn in a "Z" pattern. If there's any original buttons you will see it easily.

Also note the button's thread does not go all the way through the coat. Sewn correctly it is only stitched to the outer shell.

Pea Coat trivia of the first magnitude.

So there ya go...
Doug

Thanks for all the assistance guys! I just got the jacket and it's aces. I need to sew back on one button - it's loose. But otherwise it's perfect. Couldn't be happier.

-Jake

 

[jake431]

Being a stickler for detail I gotta ask; Do you know there's a special method for sewing on the button? It is sewn in a "Z" pattern. If there's any original buttons you will see it easily.

Also note the button's thread does not go all the way through the coat. Sewn correctly it is only stitched to the outer shell.

Pea Coat trivia of the first magnitude.

So there ya go...
Doug

I didn't notice the pattern but my girlfriend did, and she thinks she can stitch the button for me tonight. I'll make sure to tell her not to go all the way through, though she might let someone else do it then. Can't say I blame her!

-Jake

 

[Peacoat]

Doug is right but I just sew through all the fabric; it makes for a stronger fix. If you do it that way, just be sure to not sew the pocket shut.

 

[JLStorm]

Im confused about the Kersey vs. Melton wool debate. I was talking to Schott who had a contract for the Navy Peacoats in WWII and used Melton wool. They stated they have been making these jackets according to the same milspec they started using over 60 years ago. "Our 32" Classic 32 oz. Melton Wool Naval Pea Coat, military anchor buttons, hand warmer pockets, vented back and nylon quilted lining. Our wool is 75 percent reprocessed wool, 25 percent nylon and other fibers. The contents are interlocked and pressed together befor the wool is cut to ensure maximum protection against the elements. "

They also gave me this information:


Kersey:

Fiber: Wool - poor quality, can also be made of re-used or remanufactured wool.

Weave: Double cloth.

Characteristics: Medium to heavy weight, similar to melton and beaver. Well fulled in the finishing with a rather lustrous nap caused by the use of lustrous crossbred wools. Nap often has direction. Gives good wear and is dressy looking. Blues, browns and blacks are the most popular colors. Originated in Kersey, England in 11th century. Very similar to beaver but it is fulled more, has a shorter nap and a much higher luster.

Uses: Men's over coating, uniforms, women's coats, and skirts.


Melton:

Fiber: Wool, sometimes combined with synthetics.

Weave: Twill or satin weave.

Characteristics: Thick well fulled or felted wool with a smooth surface. Napped and very closely sheared. Coarse meltons are similar to makinaws but made of finer yarns and finished with a smoother, more lustrous surface - used for "under collar cloth" in lighter weights. Very solid cloth due to the finishing processes that completely conceal the weave. It wears very well. Wind resistant. if made in tan or buff color in a coarse quality, it is called "Box cloth". It is classed with kersey, beaver, and broadcloth. Originated in Melton, Mowbray, England, which is a fox hunting report in England. It was first made as a hunting cloth. Looks like wool felt - pressed flat.

Uses: Mostly used for men in over coating, uniform cloth of all kinds (army, navy, etc., as well as police and firemen), pea jackets, regal livery. Used for heavy outer sports garments and coats for women.

So, now I am confused; if Kersey is the heavier more wind resistant wool that was used until the 1970's or 1980's, but Schott had a 32oz Melton wool contract during WWII....where does that leave me lol? I just want the heaviest weight most durable wool peacoat I can find.

EDIT NOTE BY Peacoat: There is no Kersey v. Melton debate. Schott is putting out misinformation. They had no contract for 32 oz. Melton during WWII. All of the coats back then were Kersey, which is a much nicer fabric than Melton. I have read the relevant Naval Regs. All called for Kersey up until 1980 when the Navy switched to Melton as a cost cutting measure.

I have both Kersey and Melton peacoats. The Kersey, by far is the nicer of the two. Anyone who has handled both will agree.

Schott has claimed for years that it had a contract for Navy peacoats during WWII. When I called them on a research project I was doing, no one there knew anything about the contract. While I believe they may have had military contracts in the past, the language they use make me suspect it wasn't for peacoats. They may be using this phantom contract as a marketing tool.

When people are looking for information about peacoats, they find their way to the Schott website and read the misinformation. Hard then to dissuade them from what they have read. PC

 

[Peacoat]

So, now I am confused; if Kersey is the heavier more wind resistant wool that was used until the 1970's or 1980's, but Schott had a 32oz Melton wool contract during WWII....where does that leave me lol? I just want the heaviest weight most durable wool peacoat I can find.

Sorry I haven't seen this post sooner, but it has been a while since I checked the board. Summertime, doncha know? See the PM I sent you.

Forget what Schott tells you. They really don't have a clue as to what they did sixty plus years ago. Stay with the "Kersey" wool coats. See some of my old posts for the last year they were made and how to date them. I believe coats made of Melton wool started in 1978, so you will need to get a 1977 or earlier coat if you want the heavier "Kersey" wool.


Several months ago I started getting all of my information together and summarizing the methods for dating the peacoats. When warm weather hit in April, I got busy with outside activities, and that project went to the back burner. When Winter comes once again, I will get back to the peacoats.

 

[AlanC]

I picked up a old peacoat today thrifting ($14.99). It has a button loose and there is some separating under the collar on the seam, but that looks to be a relatively easy fix, I think. I couldn't find any moth damage or worn spots. It has light corduroy pockets.

Here are the tags I've found, three identical ones. One on the inside at the pocket (note 'USNR' stamped on the lining--is that for naval reserves?):

And then these two at the bottom interior on each side of the vent:

I can't find a size tag or anything else. There are 6 buttons showing, so I assume this dates it to the 1950s based on what I've read (so far) in this thread.

I measured it at 22" flat at the chest, which would translate to a size 42 using the method stated earlier in the thread (2x(underarm)-2=size). I wonder if it might be a Long, though, as the sleeves are a bit long on me (I'm usually a pretty solid Regular).

I'll try to do some pics of the coat when I have better light. I need to have it cleaned, though. It really could use it.

 

[Peacoat]

The closest I can get is mid to late 50's, probably more late than mid. I say that because the label "Manufactured By Naval Clothing Depot" preceded the "...Naval Clothing Factory" label (except for WWII, and that is a different type of analysis) in the 1950's. The "Depot" label was late 40's to mid to late 50's, with the "Factory" label in the late 1950's being the next label to appear after the "Depot" label.

And yes, from the chest measurement, I would say a size 42. A seamstress or tailor can make any needed repairs.

A nice find. Jackets in good condition from that era are getting to be rare.

 

[Journo]

a world opened up...

I had no idea there was so much to know about pea coats. It's fascinating to learn. I've got a bulky PC with a quilted nylon-type lining. It has a label inside the collar that says U.S. Navy and the buttons have anchor stamps so I'm inclined to think it's military surplus. It's easily the best coat I've owned, whether it's authentic Navy or not.

 

[Peacoat]

If you can post a picture of the tag, I can probably tell you what you have.

The quilted lining along with your tag description makes it difficult to date, as quilted lining is used in the late model coats, and the "US NAVY" tag was used much earlier.

 

[badmotorfinger]

Hi fellows, it's great to see a whole thread dedicated entirely to peacoats.
I have a hunch you will be able to date this peacoat that i picked up recently Peacoat
After browsing through this whole thread i'm thinking it is from the Vietnam era, but i could easily be wrong though.


I think it's a nice touch that the origin of the name peacoat is Dutch, as i am.
So i'm feeling a bit like going back to my ancester's roots.

 

[eniksleestack]

Hi fellows, it's great to see a whole thread dedicated entirely to peacoats.
I have a hunch you will be able to date this peacoat that i picked up recently Peacoat
After browsing through this whole thread i'm thinking it is from the Vietnam era, but i could easily be wrong though.

That tag dates from 1972, you can tell from the "72" in the "DSA-100-72-G-0304" on the tag, which means the coat was issued during the last combat year of the Vietnam War, although the party officially ended in 1975.

 

[badmotorfinger]

^^ Thank you sir.

 

[Peacoat]

I agree that it is 1972 coat, but the white lining is confusing me. I'm out of town and don't have access to my peacoats for reference, but I don't remember a white lining in any of mine. Does the white lining cover the entire inside of the coat, or is only a small portion where the tag is? Or perhaps, more likely, what is shown in the picture is the lining inside the pocket? By 1972 the pocket linings were white cotton.

You mentioned in an earlier post that the lining in your coat was quilted. The 1972 lining should be a black shiny non quilted lining. The quilted linings are used in the current issue and in the commercial peacoats.

 

[badmotorfinger]

^^ The pocket lining on both the inside and frontpockets is made of a white cotton, it almost feels like fleece, very warm and thick.
The tag is inside the right innerpocket.
The lining is shiny and black or very dark blue, can't check this as i'm not at home right now, but not quilted, it has a name and a number on it written in white.

 

[eniksleestack]

Dating these Buttons

Here's a pea coat related question. I found a bag of pea coat buttons at thrift store (pic below) and I was wondering if there was any way to tell the era they're from. Are there any significant differences between WW2 era pea coat buttons and those from later periods? Thanks in advance!

 

[Peacoat]

Good question. There have been two types of buttons that I am aware of. The type you have depicted is the post WWI type. Although I'm not sure when they changed. The WWI buttons had an anchor in the center, surrounded by 13 stars along the edge of the button. My PhotoBucket account isn't working right now, or I would post a picture of the button.

 

[Peacoat]

WWI Button

Here is a pic a WWI button. Not sure when it was replaced, but I am pretty sure it was before WWII. My note on this particular button says "1920's Button."

 

[Nighthawk]

HPA is selling the pre-WWII Buzz Rickson pea-coat this year. If you read the description on their site (linked below), it says the buttons were changed over in the late 1930s, and that they havn't changed since.

http://historypreservation.com/hpassociates/detailpop.php?uniqnum=292

NH

 

[Peacoat]

I think the information about the buttons is probably a pretty good guess on their part, but they sure missed the boat in the comment about the type of wool used and the date of its change. I guess they wanted it to be as long ago as possible--late 50's according to them--in order to make their coat more appealing.

 

[bobbyball]

Finally got the Pea coat I have been longing for

Ever since my 1967 dated pea coat literally fell apart due to mothing and heavy wear, I have been on the lookout for an original replacement.

I was at Portobello Market on Saturday and while rummaging through a rack of pea coats came across an absolute gem. It is a wartime 10-button. The label is missing and there is evidence of a small rectangular label that was centred at the back of the coat. It has not seen much wear and the lapels do not fold back in the same way as most pea coats (they are still very stiff, perhaps stored for many years buttoned up). The other thing I notice is the thread count on the stitching is incredibly fine. The material is very stiff – it is much tighter weave than my 1967 coat.

The throat fastener is still present, all buttons are there and the whole coat is completely free of moth which is quite remarkable. The only wear I can see is on the edge of the cuffs and this is very slight. There is a white stencil with the seamen’s name (Newell) on the lining at the bottom. I cannot date it accurately without the label but I may be able to research the seaman.

I paid £45.00 which was a steal!

Update – I have just found some info on a ship named Newell:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Newell_(DE-322)

Would the coat have had a ship’s reference stencilled on the inside? I will check the details again tonight.