Questions About the United States Navy Peacoat

[Ernest P Shackleton]

The LMA, aka archive.org, is definitely safe.

 

[Peacoat]

Good job @Doctor Damage. We know that up until at least 1922 the WWI peacoat was in service, and we know that by 1941 the style had changed to what we call the WWII peacoat. Now you need to find the regulations from 1934—1936 so we will know what year the style changed. The consensus on the board is that it changed right around that time, probably in 1936.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Uniform Changes Listed: Peacoat Will Get New Convertible Collar

Several miscellaneous alterations in uniform regulations have been prepared by BuPers as part of change No. 1, Uniform Regulations, 1947.

A new convertible-type collar, permitting men to open the collar at the throat, is an alteration of the enlisted men's overcoat.

To insure a neat appearance, the old style overcoat may be worn open at the throat with two buttons unbuttoned, producing the same general effect as one button unbuttoned in the new style coat. Overcoats may be worn buttoned at the neck or CO's may prescribe that mode for military formations and other functions.

Source: "Uniform Changes Listed: Peacoat Will Get New Convertible Collar." All Hands. 375 (May 1948): 47.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Good job @Doctor Damage. We know that up until at least 1922 the WWI peacoat was in service, and we know that by 1941 the style had changed to what we call the WWII peacoat. Now you need to find the regulations from 1934—1936 so we will know what year the style changed. The consensus on the board is that it changed right around that time, probably in 1936.

Google is not turning up any USN uniform regulations for any year in the 1930s. My guess would be that there was not a major regulation issued but the change was made as an amendment or something, or the change was made without a significant official document. I'll keep searching (casually).

 

[Doctor Damage]

1905 Uniform Regulations show the WW1 peacoat:

https://ia800202.us.archive.org/18/...dStatesNavy/1905RegulationsUniformsUsNavy.pdf

 

[Doctor Damage]

1897 Uniform Regulations show the WW1 peacoat was around from that date, at least:

 

[Peacoat]

Yep, the 1897 peacoat was pretty much unchanged until about 1936.

Somewhere I have a picture of Sir Winston wearing a peacoat during WWII. I will see if I can find it and post it. It will show us what a British peacoat looked like back then. It was very close to what we had at the time.

Some of our British Brothers were going to try and find pictures of their current day peacoat, but none has been posted. I wonder if the British Navy phased them out, as the US planned to do a few years ago?

 

[Peacoat]

Here is a picture of Sir Winston wearing a peacoat during WWII:

It is a little longer than the US peacoat, has an extra row of buttons, and cargo pockets and has no hand warmer pockets. Doesn't bother Sir Winston any; he just shoves his hand into the cargo pocket.

Is that Monty Montgomery next to him?

 

[Doctor Damage]

Yep, the 1897 peacoat was pretty much unchanged until about 1936.

Do you know for sure the USN issued some sort of uniform regulation around 1936 that changed the design? On what are you basing that date? As I said earlier, Google isn't coming up with anything official dating from the 1930s.

Somewhere I have a picture of Sir Winston wearing a peacoat during WWII. I will see if I can find it and post it. It will show us what a British peacoat looked like back then. It was very close to what we had at the time.

Some of our British Brothers were going to try and find pictures of their current day peacoat, but none has been posted. I wonder if the British Navy phased them out, as the US planned to do a few years ago?

I've never seen photos of RN sailors in peacoats, not during WW2 or after. and I have not seen photos of anyone wearing a coat like Churchill's and I bet it was his own design (he was known to come up with some weird fashion choices). During WW2 RN sailors wore greatcoats and duffle coats, and today they wear long double-breasted greatcoats on dress parade. I do not believe that there is any basis for the belief that the USN copied peacoats from the RN, in fact in all my years of reading I've never come across mention of a RN peacoat. Some other navies in Europe at various periods have had peacoats, including the Germans, and the USN might have been inspired by those, but I actually strongly suspect the USN peacoat might actually be an American original.

 

[Doctor Damage]

 

[Peacoat]

Yes, Sir Winston loved uniforms of all type.

The research I have done all says the US got the peacoat from the Royal Navy. Don't have any first hand information as I wasn't around back then.

There must be tons of photographs of British sailors during WWI and WWII. If they wore peacoats, surely there would be pictures of them wearing them. I never thought much about it because my research showed we got them from England. The peacoat was a standard item of dress for sailors throughout Europe. Surely the greatest navy in the world would have so equipped their sailors?

 

[Doctor Damage]

Yes, Sir Winston loved uniforms of all type.

The research I have done all says the US got the peacoat from the Royal Navy. Don't have any first hand information as I wasn't around back then.

There must be tons of photographs of British sailors during WWI and WWII. If they wore peacoats, surely there would be pictures of them wearing them. I never thought much about it because my research showed we got them from England. The peacoat was a standard item of dress for sailors throughout Europe. Surely the greatest navy in the world would have so equipped their sailors?

This is as close as I've found (below) and those ain't peacoats. The only other outerwear I've seen WW2 RN sailors wearing in photos are duffle coats of course, plus a range of waterproofs. I really do think the US might have been charting new waters with the USN peacoat (or "enlisted man's overcoat" as it was called). Anyways, I know this all sounds counterintuitive or contrary to received history, but I think you're correct to say that RN sailors would have been photographed often and if they were issued peacoats then they would show up in photos, and therefore if peacoats don't show up in photos then we have to question what we assumed was fact.

 

[Peacoat]

@Doctor Damage said: "Do you know for sure the USN issued some sort of uniform regulation around 1936 that changed the design? On what are you basing that date? As I said earlier, Google isn't coming up with anything official dating from the 1930s."

Nope don't know for sure about the uniform regulation, but I think we concluded that the WWI peacoat changed to the WWII style in 1936. Don't remember what evidence that was based on. All of that was so long ago, it makes my head swim to think about it.

The sailors in the picture above are wearing what appears to be very long peacoats, but with smaller buttons. The collar and the lapels are dead ringers for our current peacoats. Looks to me as though you have discovered the long lost RN peacoat.

 

[Doctor Damage]

The sailors in the picture above are wearing what appears to be very long peacoats, but with smaller buttons. The collar and the lapels are dead ringers for our current peacoats. Looks to me as though you have discovered the long lost RN peacoat.

Those are greatcoats, not peacoats. Here's a RN peacoat from the 1879 Naval Dress Regulations:



I've never seen those illustrated or discussed in historical books on the RN, so I have to wonder how widely they were used, despite legends claiming otherwise. And I'm pretty sure they vanished by 1900 since they don't show up in photos from the 20th century. Of course, the USN might have copied these or been inspired by them, but these sorts of short jackets had been a 'uniform' for civilian sailors for decades so who knows who copied who. I think it's quite possible this might have been, in fact, a garment that made its way from the civilian world into the military world; the assumption is often made that military clothing inspires civilian clothing, but that's a second-half of the 20th century phenomenon and from what I've read over the years I came to the conclusion that in previous peeriods military clothing just as often trailed civilian clothing (I was intending to write an article about that a few years back but never got around to it).

What we can be sure is that the USN peacoat was probably a unique original design in terms of its details, shape, pocket config, etc. Although European navies have had peacoats they have almost always been heavy versions of officer's reefer jackets with gold buttons, etc, and not quite the 'working wear' flavour of USN peacoats.

Here's an interesting article which discusses early origins of the peacoat (below). I question that the RN popularized these coats since this is the only time I've seen that claim made.

This is the story behind the US Navy’s pea coats
By Roger Schlueter
March 17, 2018 04:02 PM,
Updated March 17, 2018 04:02 PM
https://www.bnd.com/living/liv-columns-blogs/answer-man/article205693974.html

Q: Who designed the U.S. Navy pea coat? It had to be many decades ago, but it is still such a great design that it shows up in catalogs, Amazon and online stores. And how did it get its name? – Troy Garrett, of Fairview Heights

A: I hope passing along this story doesn’t get me in Dutch, but many historians point to the Netherlands as the birthplace of the pea coat. Although they’re probably best known for tulips and windmills today, the Dutch were a seafaring power centuries ago. So to help their sailors brave the bounding main in winter gales, they developed a heavy, dark wool coat that they called the “piijjekker” (or “pijjakker.”) In Dutch, “pij” (apparently pronounced “pea”) is the word for a coarse, twilled cloth with a nap on one side while “jekker” or “jakker” means “jacket.”

But as you know, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and it didn’t take long for the British to see the benefits of this heavy, functional coat for their own seamen. As a result, it was popularized by the Royal Navy of the United Kingdom, according to Jennifer Daley, a military uniform historian.

She says the first mention of the garment was found in the 1731 Royal Navy uniform manual. In fact, some suggest its name comes from British uniform store owner Edgard Camplin, who suggested it as a coat for petty officers to distinguish them from ordinary sailors. So, rather than an officer’s great coat, he came up with the “petty coat” or p. coat (pea coat) for short. (The U.S. Navy, however, maintains the name came because it was made from what was called “pilot cloth” or p-cloth for short, hence pea coat.)

These latter theories, however, do not seem terribly popular because they lack sources, dates and other details. Still, they do emphasize again that the coat is centuries old, so you can likely understand why the name of any original designer seems to be lost in the sands of time.

“The pea jackets of 1731 were required due to the expansion of the British Royal Navy into the Northern Atlantic and other extreme regions of the world where cold weather gear was required,” Daley once told the U.S. Naval Institute News.

But even before that, pea coats/jackets apparently were getting noticed. A Wikipedia article documents the mention of such a garment on page 3 of the May 9-16, 1720, issue of the Boston Gazette. Presumably, the British brought the pea coat across the pond and Americans carried on the British style even after the Revolutionary War.

 

[Doctor Damage]

here's more USN coats...

 

[Spoonbelly]

@Doctor Damage said: "Do you know for sure the USN issued some sort of uniform regulation around 1936 that changed the design? On what are you basing that date? As I said earlier, Google isn't coming up with anything official dating from the 1930s."

Nope don't know for sure about the uniform regulation, but I think we concluded that the WWI peacoat changed to the WWII style in 1936. Don't remember what evidence that was based on. All of that was so long ago, it makes my head swim to think about it.

The sailors in the picture above are wearing what appears to be very long peacoats, but with smaller buttons. The collar and the lapels are dead ringers for our current peacoats. Looks to me as though you have discovered the long lost RN peacoat.

As I mentioned once before I had come across a website which had a photo of a peacoat stating that it was a "1938 USN Peacoat". It appeared to be a WWII edition. Still can't remember where I found it.

 

[Doctor Damage]

for comparison purposes, this is supposedly a French navy pea coat:

 

[Peacoat]

Good job of digging these photos up.

 

[ZenEdge]

I know this is a little off topic, but it is related. I have been looking at WWll USN knit watch caps on eBay and other sites. Some appear black and some appear dark blue. Is this a situation similar to the peacoat where the true color is a midnight blue? Reproduction watch caps from Buzz Rickson and other outlets muddy the waters by making them available in both navy blue and black. Are vintage watch caps midnight blue, not black? Did the US Navy even make black watch caps?

 

[Doctor Damage]

Good job of digging these photos up.

I hope you can fill in the gaps in the peacoat timeline. I have no idea where or how you Peacoat (or someone) will confirm when the design changed from the WW1 to WW2 versions, but it must be possible to do so.