Questions About the United States Navy Peacoat

[Spoonbelly]

I use heavy duty black button thread.

 

[Peacoat]

Didn't know there was a heavy duty thread. Good to know. I use whatever my wife has, and I'm sure it isn't heavy duty.

 

[Navy]

Do your peacoat's lining match with the button threads?
Mine do and I'm wondering if that's the way it was designed or if another tailor put them like that

 

[FoundingFathersGhost]

Maybe I can get some help with the peacoat I just bought. I can't figure out the date. I think it is from the late 1940s or early 1950s as it has an older style label but six buttons showing and the double stitch on the sleeves. There is no contract number and the name and Service number are in a sans serif font. The "I shall return" hints at Douglas McAuthur and WWII or maybe Korea? The only information I could find on Walter J. Niziolek who was local and in the Navy was a man who died in 1944, but that was too early for the coat. There is another person by the same name who lived father away, but I can't tell if he had a service record. Any thoughts?

Thank you!

 

[Spoonbelly]

Maybe I can get some help with the peacoat I just bought. I can't figure out the date. I think it is from the late 1940s or early 1950s as it has an older style label but six buttons showing and the double
stitch on the sleeves. There is no contract number and the name and Service number are in a sans serif font. The "I shall return" hints at Douglas McAuthur and WWII or maybe Korea? The only information I could find on Walter J. Niziolek who was local and in the Navy was a man who died in 1944, but that was too early for the coat. There is another person by the same name who lived father away, but I can't tell if he had a service record. Any thoughts? View attachment 61956 View attachment 61957
Thank you!

I'll throw in my two cents and venture to say it's a very late WWII or late '40s ('46-'48?). The start of the 8 button coats came right after the 10 button WWII style coats. There were probably very few 8 button coats made with that WWII era "Naval Clothing Factory" label.

 

[Peacoat]

Spoon is close That tag was used in 1945 (and maybe a year after), and the 8 button showing coat was introduced at the end of the war. So this coat can be narrowed down to 1945 or 1946. Another type of tag was introduced in 1947.

A word of caution when dating these coats by the style of the tag. There is no bright line rule here. If a manufacturer had a batch of old tags around the factory, it might well use those tags for a month or so into the time period when the new tags would normally be used. While we can't tell with exactitude the year, the tags give us a very good idea of when a coat was produced.

There is a school of thought in the peacoat dating community that manufacturers would often use anomalous tags in random years to confuse those doing research in the next century. I am the leading proponent of that theory.

BTW, welcome to the Lounge. PC

 

[Ramon5a]

Hello everyone! This is my first post. I was looking into purchasing a Kersey Wool peacoat from the 1970s. My chest measurement is 37-38. I bought a 42L but it fit way too big and I'm looking now for a trimmer 38R.

I found this one on ebay with P2P of 20.5" but couldn't find the exact same label in your (amazingly informative) post. Also it seems suspicious since it looks brand new. Do you think this label/coat is authentic?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-1970-US...866679?hash=item2ef892cff7:g:oLIAAOSwnHZYRIcj

I'm asking because it says Kersey Blue (Peacoat) instead of only Kersey (Peacoat) like in your pictures. It also has an extra comma between Coat and Man's
The one from ebay:

The one from your post from 1968:

Also, do you think this is a good price? Or should I wait for something else?

The size should be okay for my 38 chest right? I'm looking for a trim fit.

Thanks!

 

[Peacoat]

Yes, the tag is authentic. A size 38 (p2p of 20.5) will have enough room for a sweater which you will need when the temps drop into the low 40s and below. For a trim fit without room for a sweater, go with a size 36. The p2p on a 36 will be a bit different than what we would expect. It is a reasonable price; get it and see how it fits. Then you might want to size down for those times when you aren't wearing a sweater.

The seller gave a "chest size" of 41. Are you assuming he measured the p2p and then doubled it? I would send him a message and ask if he measured the p2p at 20.5. Also ask him what his actual chest measurement is.

 

[dioxide]

Hey, I just spent a couple hours researching for my first peacoat and read through Peacoat's lengthy post over here and it was extremely helpful.

Just got a few questions for regarding size. For reference, I'm 5'8ft and 135lbs.

In your post you mentioned that the current issue years (1980+) are more generous in terms of size than the vintage (1946-1979) coats, would you say in terms of fitting they're in between the WWII and vintage coats? The reason I'm asking is because I'm looking at a peacoat that seems to be in the ~1980 era. From what I've read on other forums, some people mentioned that the 1980 peacoats weren't as ideal for slimmer people (like me), they mentioned that the 1980 era peacoats ran a bit larger so I want to hear your opinion on this.

My chest size is a 35 1/2, my p2p is 18 1/2ish. The coat I'm looking at has a chest size 36 with a p2p of 19. Following your post, this means that a p2p of 19 confirms the actual chest size of the coat. Will I run into fitting issues due to my weird chest measurements? I do plan on adding a layer or two as the temperature over here is currently 20F and dropping each day. I plan on wearing a sweater/hoodie on top of my usual dress-shirt (with a thin t-shirt under the dress shirt, sometimes)

What I'm worried about the most is the peacoat looking too baggy even with layers and even more so when I want to just wear a t-shirt underneath for when the weather doesn't require as much layers (or I could just grab another one that is a size lower (34) as you suggested in your post.

 

[Peacoat]

I have three size 34 peacoats. Two of them are vintage and both measure 19" p2p. The third is a 1980 Vi Mil, what I refer to as current issue. It measures what we would normally think a size 34 should measure at 18" p2p. Interestingly, the vintage 34 coats are cut more generous than the current issue coat.

Some terminology here: People have chest sizes. Coats have a P2p. It only induces more error in the measurement if we only measure 1/2 of our chest. We do it on coats as we can get a fairly accurate measurement that way.

When we get down to the smaller sizes--34 and 36--the p2p measurements are different than in the larger sizes. I can't explain why, I can only note that it is there. What I believe is that a size 34 in vintage will measure 19" p2p. A size 36 in vintage will measure about 19.5 to 19.75." And a size 38 in vintage will be about 20.25". Somewhere I have these measurements, but can't find them right now, so I am going from memory.

You are in between sizes because of your chest measurement. I would say a coat with a p2p of about 19.5" would give you enough room to layer a sweater. Use wool not cotton--much warmer. A p2p of 19" should give you a slimmer fit. So basically you are looking for a size 34 or 36 peacoat. I would say get the larger size first and see how it fits. If it is large enough to layer a sweater, then get the next size down for a trim fit without a sweater. Or do it in reverse with the smaller size first. Keep in mind that a closely fitted peacoat will be warmer than a peacoat one size up (assuming no layering) because of the reduced air flow in the smaller sizes.

 

[dioxide]

I have three size 34 peacoats. Two of them are vintage and both measure 19" p2p. The third is a 1980 Vi Mil, what I refer to as current issue. It measures what we would normally think a size 34 should measure at 18" p2p. Interestingly, the vintage 34 coats are cut more generous than the current issue coat.

Some terminology here: People have chest sizes. Coats have a P2p. It only induces more error in the measurement if we only measure 1/2 of our chest. We do it on coats as we can get a fairly accurate measurement that way.

When we get down to the smaller sizes--34 and 36--the p2p measurements are different than in the larger sizes. I can't explain why, I can only note that it is there. What I believe is that a size 34 in vintage will measure 19" p2p. A size 36 in vintage will measure about 19.5 to 19.75." And a size 38 in vintage will be about 20.25". Somewhere I have these measurements, but can't find them right now, so I am going from memory.

You are in between sizes because of your chest measurement. I would say a coat with a p2p of about 19.5" would give you enough room to layer a sweater. Use wool not cotton--much warmer. A p2p of 19" should give you a slimmer fit. So basically you are looking for a size 34 or 36 peacoat. I would say get the larger size first and see how it fits. If it is large enough to layer a sweater, then get the next size down for a trim fit without a sweater. Or do it in reverse with the smaller size first. Keep in mind that a closely fitted peacoat will be warmer than a peacoat one size up (assuming no layering) because of the reduced air flow in the smaller sizes.

Thank you for the reply! I've learned so much about peacoats more than any other piece of my clothing and I don't even own one yet.

After reading a bit further into this thread, it seems that I should go for a pre-1980 peacoat for the kersey wool seeing as they're much warmer (and higher quality) than the current issue ones. I'm currently looking at a WWII era peacoat seeing as they fit about 3/4 of an inch smaller in the chest, just waiting on the seller to provide me with the measurements and additional photos.

 

[Peacoat]

I wouldn't say the Kersey coats are much warmer, as the current issue coats have a lining added which helps quite a bit. The shell on the Kersey is thicker and more dense than the current issue coats. It provides for more water resistance and does a better job of blocking the wind. Plus the Kersey coats just look better.

The WWII coats aren't 3/4" smaller in the chest; it is the p2p measurement that is about 3/4 smaller. That means the coat itself is 1.5" smaller around the chest. That is what I consider to be a substantial difference. The p2p will differ depending on the size of the coat.

When I read your comment that the WWII coats were 3/4" smaller in the chest, I thought that was too much of a difference. I measured my WWII coat p2p and it was 21.5", while my vintage post war coats are about 22.25" (size 42). So that is a full 3/4" difference in the p2p.

You have probably already read the guide linked below, but if you haven't, you will enjoy it.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/thre...-dating-the-united-states-navy-peacoat.72058/

 

[responsible D]

I'm looking at some 36L peacoats on eBay. There are three, and each is from the metal button era (two silver, one gold). Each item includes a photo of the tag, and each tag has a '7x' number where we expect to find the year. So these things all indicate that the coats are from the 70s.

I'm looking for a Kersey coat, and from these ads I'm not able to confirm that any of them is made of that material. None of the tags identifies the material other than with the word 'WOOL.' The tags themselves are the same format as shown in Peacoat's dating guide as representative of an 80s Melton coat (that tag and the tags of these three coats all indicate the same manufacturer, VI-MIL). The quality of the photos is not good enough for me to tell whether they are midnight blue, as I would expect with Kersey, or black.

So my question to Peacoat and others is, does anyone have a metal button coat with this type of tag, and if so, is it Kersey?

 

[Peacoat]

As you have found out, the Kersey coats were replaced by Melton in 1980. Prior to that time there were some Melton coats issued, but from what I have seen they were labeled as such. I wouldn't be guided by the metal buttons as they were in play from 1974 through 1984. If the tags indicate a 1970s date, then I would think the coats are probably of the Kersey wool. It would surprise me if those three jackets had the 1980s tag but were 1970s coats. It does seem odd that there are currently three coats with those tags on eBay. Or it could be you are misreading the numbers and don't have the right date.

If any of the jackets has a DSA prefix, we know it was in the 60s or 70s. If a DLA prefix, it could be from 1977 through 1993, I believe it was.
You could copy and paste the numbers here if they are in a copyable format. If not, you can copy and paste the links to the auctions, send them to me in a PM and I will take a look at them. You may not have enough posts for a PM, however.

Edit Note: I went back to the dating guide to see what the tags in the 1970s looked like. To my surprise I saw that I had no tags from the 70s. The reason probably was because after 1966 the dates were embedded in the contract number, and there was no need to date by tag style. So strike my comments about being surprised if those coats were of the 70s vintage with that type of tag. That could be the tag that was mainly used in the 70s for all I know.

 

[responsible D]

Hi Peacoat,

Thanks for the tip about DSA and DLA. If I'm reading the dates right, there are two, dated '75 and '77, that are DSA, and one dated '78 that is DLA.

Also, apologies for an error that I made - one of them (the '75) is labeled Modern Garments Inc. rather than VI- MIL. But it is true that they all use the same format of label. Maybe by that time it had been standardized?

Above: silver buttons

Above: gold buttons

Above: silver buttons

Here's a link to an album that shows the three label images along with links to the eBay listing for each one.

https://imgur.com/a/RxNR6

Edit: reformat and add label images to post

 

[Peacoat]

These peacoats should all have the Kersey shell.

It appears this was the tag used in the 70s and at least into 1980. By this time the style of the tag was no longer important as the date of the contract was embedded in the contract number.

If your chest measures about 38" and if the p2p on these coats is about 19.5" to 19.75," Then you should get a fairly trim fit. the long sizes give about 2" extra in the length and about 1" extra in the sleeve.

 

[Saint Johnny]

Hello everyone,

Another new arrival here with some questions about dating a recent peacoat acquisition.
The tag most closely matches the 1945 image from Mr Peacoat's dating thread.

The person from whom I purchased the coat told me that, "the owner of this coat joined the Navy after boot camp,went to submarine school in New London Conn. Upon graduation assigned to the USS Croker SS243. In 1965 was transferred to the USS Harder SS568, Charleston South Carolina. He Was Honorably Discharged in 1967.
View attachment 23860 View attachment 23861

Some measurements for Mr. Peacoat's database:
Shoulder to shoulder - 17 3/4"
Pit to Pit - 17 3/4"
Sleeves - 24 3/4"

Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for the great resource.

Baz

Yes, it does appear to be a 1945 tag. Could be that the coat hung around (lost) for a number of years before it was issued. You didn't say what year the sailor joined the Navy, but I am assuming it was 1963, based on the other dates provided. If so, we would expect that he would have been issued a coat with the "US NAVY" tag.

Is that tagged as a size 36 coat? P2P isn't consistent with a 36.

Doesn't appear that this coat has much wear on it. As it's owner was a submariner, I wouldn't expect much wear.

Welcome to The Fedora Lounge. Mr. Peacoat.

More size "36" data points. It seems lightening has struck twice in almost the same exact circumstances as those quoted above.

After contemplating a vintage USN issued Kersey peacoat purchase for the past year, which lead me here btw, and after reading and then re-reading this and Peacoat's dating thread, multiple times, ( many many thanks to Peacoat's informative guides and the threads posted here)!

I decided which type and vintage peacoat I wanted, and finally took the plunge last month. I purchased what was listed as a Vietnam era coat, in virtually mint, unworn condition, labeled a size 36.

Having gathered so much information here before I purchased it. I knew from the "Naval Clothing Factory" label it was much older than Vietnam era, perhaps even as old as late 1946- early 1947. So I jumped on it. Carelessly, without asking the seller to first measure the p2p. I naively assumed that while yes, it was labeled as a 36, my 38.5" chest size might be a tight fit, (which is exactly what I wanted).

Buuutttt, I had no idea how tight/fitted/small this particular size 36 would be. Once it arrived and I tried it on, I could not believe how really really small this particular coat was. I could barely fit my arms into the sleeves, and I could not even come close to buttoning even a single button.
So I measured and measured and remeasured, and just to make sure, I read and re-read ALL these threads over and over. And what I found in the above quoted posts are almost exactly
the same measurements, though my "new" coat may be a tad smaller as it is closer to 17.5" p2p, rather than 17.75". The example I just bought appears to be in reality a size 32. Instead of the 36 that it was labeled, though my example has NO cross out, with the added "32" for size., next to the stamped "36".

 

[Peacoat]

This is why it is so important to always ask for a properly measured p2p. I wasn't aware of this problem until fellow member Cooperson brought it to my attention. It happened to him in a coat he bought, although it wasn't as radically off as this one is.

 

[Saint Johnny]

This is why it is so important to always ask for a properly measured p2p. I wasn't aware of this problem until fellow member Cooperson brought it to my attention. It happened to him in a coat he bought, although it wasn't as radically off as this one is.

I see that now! :facepalm: It's too bad it's so far off it's labelled size, as it really is just about perfect, mint condition. All buttons still have the original Z thread pattern, and the anchors on the right side are all canted slightly right. While the anchors on the left are all canted left. As someone posted above, the anchor tops are all about 30 degrees out of vertical.

It was truly funny trying to get it on, with my g/f telling me it's too small, and she thinks I may have gained too much weight lately if I can't even button any of the buttons.
I tried to tell her, It's not MY weight that's off. It's the stated jacket size that was off... LMAOF

Back to the chase...

 

[Saint Johnny]

Ha, I just decided to re-measure it yet again, just to be absolutely sure. And to see if 17.5" p2p was indeed correct, and it was correct.
But I also noticed something that I hadn't noticed initially. While there is NO cross out of the "36" next to the stamped "36", In very, very faint and/or faded blue pen, I can barely make out. It shows either, "32" or maybe "33". Go figure!